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| Chat Log 9/5/2008 12:20:24 PM |
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Welcome to the Freedomain Live Chat! |
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Welcome to the Freedomain Radio chat room!
Chat Room Notes: http://freedomainradio.com/board/forums/p/14633/123381.aspx#123381
VOICE CHAT! http://www.freedomainradio.com/walkie-talkie.html |
| worger: |
hey bob |
| BobC: |
also, what's wrong with UFC fighters? |
| worger: |
i actually used to fight full contact |
| worger: |
helped train a guy who won one year |
| worger: |
but back then I was worse off than I am now |
| worger: |
emotionally and stuff... |
| worger: |
it's good exercise, etc |
| worger: |
but once you start competing in UFC type stuff you've probably crossed a line somewhere |
| BobC: |
cool, what did he win? Actual UFC? |
| BobC: |
in what way? |
| worger: |
I'm pretty sure it was called UFC |
| worger: |
10 or 15 yrs ago? |
| worger: |
in what way crossed a line? |
| BobC: |
hmm, I don't know how new UFC is, but it might be that old |
| BobC: |
yeah |
| worger: |
well, that's a good question |
| BobC: |
don't get me wrong - I don't imagine they're the most functional people on the planet... |
| worger: |
seems like you're reaching for something by going that far |
| worger: |
taking a lot more risk than you need to |
| worger: |
and I don't know why you'd do it |
| worger: |
although lots of people take big risks I guess |
| worger: |
extreme skiers, race car drivers, football players |
| BobC: |
but you wouldn't be reaching for something by doing it on a local, amateur level? |
| worger: |
but football players earn a healthy living.... |
| BobC: |
so do top-notch UFC fighters |
| worger: |
yes you would, but you're not fighting guys who want to crush you |
| BobC: |
yes you are, they're just not that good at it |
| worger: |
you're fighting for points, the rules don't allow as much brutality |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
did i mention that Agape called me on the phone after i banned him? |
| worger: |
actually you're right, some people are just angry and want to kick you as hard as they can |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
there was not much pleasure |
| JP-call: |
you did not! |
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Tuttle left this room. |
| JP-call: |
i imagine not. |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
who's Agape? |
| JP-call: |
so you finally banned him from the chat/board? |
| JP-call: |
wasn't he already banned? |
| JP-call: |
or just kicked |
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V CADD joined the room. |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
banned him from the whole place |
| BobC to worger: |
what specifically is it about 'fighters' that you consider dysfunctional? I partly agree that they MIGHT be, but I've really not thought about it enough |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
he was pretty nihilistic, and was telling everyone in here that therapy is a fraudulent profession |
| JP-call: |
i thought he was the same guy who also made that very callous remark during Tom's convo w/ you in the call-in show a number of months back |
| BobC to worger: |
but the distinction I would make is that it probably doesn't have to do with the level on which they fight. Though obviously you can talk about motivations for the people who work to obsessive levels |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
i just could not get him to understand that his bad experiences with a few therapists does not constitute valid knowledge about the profession as a whole |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
that's just bigotry |
| JP-call: |
yeah |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
"i knew a few bad black men, therefore..." |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
so i just hung up on him |
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Citizen_Z left this room. |
| JP-call: |
|
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JP-call has renamed to JP-werk |
| worger to BobC: |
well at a certain level it seems like they're taking on a lot of risk and brutalizing themselves |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
therapists, or psychiatrists? Is it possible he was confusing the two? |
| worger to BobC: |
I see that you don't see it that way, and I could probably put more thought into it myself |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
doesn't matter |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
personal experience is still not valid for generalizing |
| JP-werk: |
maybe you could say that about apricot-pit salesmen |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
yes |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
but no one explored that principle in the thread |
| JP-werk: |
this is true! |
| worger: |
same question that came up last night: psychiatrist or psychologists |
| BobC: |
that's true, though I didn't see the conversation. For all I know he's put a lot of time and effort into researching the profession and come to a conclusion |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
well of course i asked him that |
| JP-werk: |
Bob, do you know that for sure? |
| BobC to JP-werk: |
oops |
| BobC to JP-werk: |
know what for sure? didn't mean to tick whisper |
| GregG: |
I wonder what Agape's goal was when he called you |
| GregG: |
what did he expect would happen? |
| JP-werk to BobC: |
regarding the time and effort researching the profession, and stef mentioned that he asked him that question |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
and of course if he had done that, he would know the difference between a therapist and a psychiatrist |
| JP-werk to Stefan Molyneux: |
what did he have to say about that? |
| JP-werk to Stefan Molyneux: |
harrumphs and "that's irrelevant"s? |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
well i can only assume that he wanted me to hang up on him |
| BobC to JP-werk: |
um, I said "for all I know". I was saying that I don't have the information to suggest that it was 'just personal experience' |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
so he could level up, because he felt humiliated |
| JP-werk to BobC: |
i know you said that |
| BobC to JP-werk: |
Stef told me that he asked him that question, after I asked HIM that question |
| BobC to JP-werk: |
right |
| JP-werk to BobC: |
but why say that? |
| BobC to JP-werk: |
why mention the possibility? |
| BobC to JP-werk: |
in the hope that it would be clarified |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
reproducing the humiliation |
| Stefan Molyneux to JP-werk: |
bob is very optimistic |
| BobC to JP-werk: |
which it was, to an extent. Though obviously I haven't seen the conversation |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
STB |
| JP-werk to Stefan Molyneux: |
i see |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
optimistic about what? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
about Agape |
| JP-werk to BobC: |
it wasn't clear to me, from the way you were putting it, that you were asking for clarification, if that makes sense |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
because you said that perhaps he did not understand the difference between a therapist and a psychiatrist |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
and then you mused about his extensive research |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
not quite consistent approaches, if that makes any sense |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
you like to believe the best in ppl i think |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
or i have noticed |
| JP-werk: |
i gots to brb |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
or his possible extensive research, sorry |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
i'm not criticizing of course |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
of course |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
is it nit-picking to suggest that criticism isn't a bad thing, but 'being critical' is? |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
I asked about the therapist vs psychiatrist issue, solely because I've seen plenty of anti-psychiatry movements, but I didn't realise therapy was such a hot point for people |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
that was purely clarification |
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David left this room. |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
My parents, and just about every adult I knew when I was younger, was HIGHLY suspicious of therapy, and spoke about it with derision and resentment |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
Even when my own mother ended up in the hands of a psychiatrist, the most they would tolerate was a diagnosis and a prescription for drugs. NO analysis. They wouldn't even DISCUSS her problems, let alone let anyone analyze her. |
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minknlv19 left this room. |
| worger: |
who's they GG? |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
my parents |
| GregG: |
and my dad, as far as he was concerned, he was perfectly fine. He didn't need any help with anything. |
| worger: |
I'm sure.... |
| BobC to GregG: |
wow, they actually trusted the drugs, but not the therapy? If that's a representative view, it seems we've come through something of a paradigm shift |
| GregG: |
so, I don't know if that equals a "general trend" in terms of bad attitudes toward psychological therapy, but it was definitely my experience |
| GregG: |
i harbored that suspicion myself for many years. |
| GregG: |
To my own detriment. |
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bockman joined the room. |
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bockman has renamed to dave.b |
| worger: |
well there's a stigma associated with it |
| worger: |
or there was in my mind |
| worger: |
of course it's irrational and fear-based, but it was there |
| dave.b to Stefan Molyneux: |
that was me Stef |
| dave.b to Stefan Molyneux: |
saying I would disengage |
| BobC: |
is this all forms of 'mental health' treatment, worger?? |
| BobC: |
-? |
| worger: |
pretty much, yes |
| dave.b to Stefan Molyneux: |
and I stopped because I felt like I was the corrupt partner in managing the OP's emotional addictions |
| Stefan Molyneux to dave.b: |
innnnteresting |
| worger: |
i guess the new agey stuff wasn't as bad in my mind, just thought it was goofy |
| Stefan Molyneux to dave.b: |
right - and did u learn why? |
| BobC: |
that's strange, it's possibly different in my country, but I've never really experienced anti-therapist sentiments |
| worger to BobC: |
where are you? |
| BobC: |
though I've seen derision of 'shrinks' and the like in movies and on American TV |
| BobC: |
Scotland, UK |
| worger: |
that's great. and I'd mention that it was a perception in my mind, again based on fear |
| worger: |
so I can't say that it really exists out there, but I've always had the impression that it does |
| BobC: |
fair enough |
| worger: |
everything gets swept under the carpet |
| JP-werk: |
the perception i grew up with was that if you were seeing a therapist, you were 'weak' |
| JP-werk: |
and if you were taking pills to manage the symptoms, you were 'broken' |
| dave.b to Stefan Molyneux: |
sure, because I connected what you said in the nihilism podcasts to what this guy was bringing to the boards |
| JP-werk: |
though i'm almost certain that the latter case was because they didn't treat the underlying causes |
| worger to JP-werk: |
same |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
ru in contact with your bro at all? |
| BobC: |
what do you all think of the efficacy of therapy? Do the majority of problems occur in the patients or in the therapists? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
u mean talking therapy? |
| JP-werk: |
i'm sure i can't answer that question |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
generally yeah. I assume talking therapy is the root of all therapy. If the original diagnosis is wrong, there's no guarantee that drugs will do anything |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
what is the 'original diagnosis'? |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
well when you said talking-therapy. I took that to mean the alternative to medicated therapy. So before drugs are used, a diagnosis must be made. That's what I was referring to |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
got it, thanks |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I've had some brief IM exchanges with him over the last few months. |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
sorry, perhaps not |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
Why do you ask? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
do you mean a psychiatric diagnosis? |
| dave.b to BobC: |
interestingly, recent studies have shown that medication for all but the most severely depressed people is no more effective than administering placebos. |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
oh, he sent a msg |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
REALLY? |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
yarly |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
That's great news! |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
well this is where my ignorance shines... I don't really know, I assumed both psychiatrists and psycho-therapists 'start' in similar ways with new patients? I might well be wrong |
| JP-werk: |
i could hear your eyes popping from here, greg |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
diagnosis is a very lengthy process |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I'm ecstatic. What did he want? Just in general. no details |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
is it based on 'talking' though? |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
oh, he just wanted to tell me that he was canceling his subscription |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
yes and no |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
oh. |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
there are lots of standardized tests which have to be analyzed |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
|
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
but very few therapists do that |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
unless requested to by an insurance company |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
I could be wrong, but are these things like personality profiles and rorschach-type tests? Are those even used nowadays? |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
is he still dating that girl? |
| dave.b: |
right, the MMPI, for example |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
well, there was the Beck Depression inventory |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
Yeah. |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
and a wide variety of other diagnostic criteria |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
it really depends upon the complaint or the problem |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
Christina has given some of those to me, for practice |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
ah |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
well that explains why he remains depressed |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
well, yeah. |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
Exploitation equals not so much with the joy |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
he's very depressed. I've talked briefly with him about that, and he knows why, at least on one level. |
| |
Ned left this room. |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
well. that just put a cloud over my day :( |
| JP-werk: |
G, didn't you mention at one point that he still was in contact (however tenuous) with your folks? |
| GregG to JP-werk: |
he can't tell them no |
| BobC: |
right, I see. So if we go back to the original point: if we assume that therapy often fails, what is the main cause? Is it in the therapist (ie, poor diagnosis), or the patient (unwilling to communicate)? |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
soooo.... |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
that's a "yes"? |
| GregG to JP-werk: |
yeah |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
right |
| GregG to JP-werk: |
The last time was about 3 months ago. He had a performance downstate illinois, and my parents just decided to show up at it, out of the blue |
| GregG to JP-werk: |
They emailed him the night before, and he IM'ed me in a panic. |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
how do we assume that therapy often fails? |
| GregG to JP-werk: |
I tried to help him deal with it emotionally, but there was little I could do, especially with that girlfriend in tow, who has her own parental issues... |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
i am sorry to hear that - what do u feel? |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
Very sad. And also some anger. I wish I didn't care about him. Maybe it's not care. Maybe I'm still enmeshed somehow. I'm not sure anymore. |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
I guess that's just an assumption I had. I thought it was fairly widespread, but apparently not |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
i have not heard of failure rates - have you? |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
nope, though I know of a few failures. But obviously that's not reliable as a representative sample |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
even classifying success could be difficult |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
true |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
i know of why some of my wife's patients trewatment did not work out of course |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
but that is only anecdotal |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
maybe its me that can't say no |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
to what? |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
so what do you view the problems as being? |
| dave.b: |
stef you mentioned once tht the chances of success for a patient are very small if they are at the therapist's at the behest of someone else. |
| |
Dio joined the room. |
| BobC to dave.b: |
does this mean that a person has to be self-motivated to seek therapy? |
| BobC to dave.b: |
(in order for it to be successful) |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
well one indication is the 'externalization of control' |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
for instance |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
the fellow I was talking about kept saying that all the therapists he had were terrible |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
to him. To his attention. to using him to feel valuable, because I'm "helping"... |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
he never once said |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
all the therapists I "chose" were terrible |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
you see the difference? |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
yeah, there's no relinquishment of responsibility |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
I think that it is impossible to stop caring about family members fundamentally |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
I think that might be backwards |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
sorry, ACCEPTANCE |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
haha |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
right |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
it's like the people who say "my wife just turned out to be a bitch" |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
and then go on to say that all women are bitches |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
not exactly an excess of personal responsibility and choice |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
those people do not succeed in therapy |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
because they are addicted to blaming others rather than taking responsibility |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
and because they are addicted to blame others, they view all assignments of personal responsibility as an attack upon them |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
we live in the world we create |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
emotionally |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
so I guess the next question is, is there anything which can be done to penetrate that kind of shell? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
and so naturally, of course, they end up blaming the therapist, and then therapy as a whole |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
no, there is nothing which can be done |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
that pathology is entirely self-perpetuating |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
it cannot be undone |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
unless it undoes itself? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
it's fundamentally untreatable |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
what you mean by that? |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
which I'm not suggesting is likely or common, but the control is intentionally retained by the mechanism |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
sorry, I don't quite understand that |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
well to that sort of personality, no external force would be able to make a difference. But I think (speculation, obviously) that this personality can still crack, if it comes within. For example, a person gradually comes to the realisation that they've seen 20 therapists, who have been effective for other people; maybe it's a problem with them? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
I have never seen that occur |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
I never heard of it, though it could be theoretically possible I guess |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
the problem is that the people tend to make such disastrous decisions because they will not accept responsibility that the costs of accepting responsibility later on just become worse and worse |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
if that makes any sense |
| |
dave.b left this room. |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
it really seems to be an eternity self-sealing tomb |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
eternally, sorry |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
on that note, while this isn't really relevant to whether it happens or not, I don't think it's something which would likely be 'observed' by anybody. I think the tendency for this personality to destroy relationships, ensures few will survive to witness a change |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
What do you mean? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
well, these people tend not to end up alone |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
because they fear and hate solitude |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
but rather they surround themselves with codependent people, since they themselves are codependent |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
but certainly there is no one around who will have the eyes to see the disaster, because they are all living the disaster rather than observing it |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
true |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
about what? |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
my last comment to you? |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
but I suppose in a way, it's an issue of perspective. If something strong enough can shake their perspective, then they might be able to view their actions for what they really are |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
Yeah. If you want, we can chat later when you're not busy. Don't want to muddle up the discussion here.... |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
it's obviously very difficult to imagine this kind of personality, so it might be completely impossible |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
do you feel the need to provide a 'way out'? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
feels that way :) |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
ahhh |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
the optimism |
| BobC to GregG: |
Greg, feel free, these aren't my issues, but I find it interesting. I'd rather you sorted out your own issues |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
hehe, I really don't think that's what this is |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
it's the idea that people's philosophies and affiliations, in almost every aspect of their lives often seem weak, to the point that they are breakable |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
having said that, it's possible that some defenses are far too strong to penetrate |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
but for the record, if it is just optimism, I certainly don't see that as a bad thing. If therapists would write a person off as beyond repair, then I wouldn't condemn the person (however foolish) who thinks there might be a solution |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
but then again, I don't know much about therapy yet. Perhaps it just takes the repeated witnessing of self-destruction to get to the point where you feel like it can't be prevented in certain personality types |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
what would it mean to you emotionally if some ppl were "beyond repair"? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
doctors make that determination every day |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
well it's certainly sad, but it's also a fact of life |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
but i think u are rejecting it as a fact :) |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
however people who were once 'beyond repair' with respect to medical and psychological context, are now not. |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
oh, I fully accept it as a fact that given what we currently know and are able to do, that some people are beyond repair |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
with all due respect, that's not the impression that I get :) |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
well that's fair enough. And forgive me for sounding cheeky, but everybody can misinterpret :P |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
because you seem to be spending a lot of energy creating exceptions |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
which I don't disagree with in essence of course |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
well, we can do a quick show of hands |
| JP-werk: |
i'm getting a similar impression, bob |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
which proves nothing of course, but might be helpful |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
do other people get the impression that Bob is invested in creating exceptions? |
| JP-werk: |
aye |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
what do you mean, incidentally, about 'exceptions'? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
well, when I say that something is incurable, you spend some time saying that they are are probably -- or may be -- exceptions to that |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
again, it's not a criticism, it's just an observation |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
I think the idea that personality problems are incurable is upsetting to you in some way |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
again, just a theory :) |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
sorry, two secs, on the phone... and no, I'm not lying |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
hehe |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
http://www.cafepress.com/copenhagenchic.301238206 |
| Dio: |
Heh |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
I just wanted to point out that you caring for your brother is not a personal failure |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
our emotional investment in our families never goes away |
| worger: |
reading history, raising my hand |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
It's painful |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
it's like trying to unlearn English |
| worger to GregG: |
({) |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
it is, and it always will be painful |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
you cannot live as if you did not know him for 40 years |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
that would be schizophrenic, not healthy |
| JP-werk to Stefan Molyneux: |
(not to detract but that's a hilarious shirt) |
| JP-werk to Stefan Molyneux: |
sorry, could have whispered that |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
({) |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I wanted him... still want him... to be happy. to have what I'm trying to build for myself. and he just keeps doing things that are like he's telling me he doesn't care. |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
Well, he does care, just as you do |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
at the same time he tells me he does |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I just feel so helpless with him |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
Well you are helpless with them |
 Stefan Molyneux to  GregG: |
With him |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
That is just a fact of nature |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
You cannot make his decisions for him |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
I'm sorry to be so annoyingly obvious  |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
no, you're right. and its that power to choose that makes it all the more painful, I think. Why is he making the choices he's making? Why can't I get him to see what he's doing to himself, to people around him? To me? |
 worger: |
this is like the 8th time I've talked about some basic sales stuff, but here goes again |
| worger: |
you can rarely just tell somebody what they need |
| worger: |
like "dude you need a car that has seatbelts. if yours doesn't you'll fly" |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I'm taking too much responsibility for this. |
| worger: |
but they won't listen |
| worger: |
they have to come to the conclusion themselves |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I think |
| worger: |
and I guess you can help them do that by asking questions and helping them understand stuff |
| worger: |
but if they won't play, they won't get it |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
Well, but you need to look at things with more curiosity I would suggest, and from both sides of the equation |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
I would suspect that he wants you to take responsibility for him |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
It is not a self generated interaction |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
Everything is reciprocal |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
Avoid conclusions at all costs |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
That makes sense. I can see that in some of our interactions a few years ago. It's why he ended up rooming with me. |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
Well, I bet you that it is a strategy that he developed as a very young child |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
Whoa. Yeah. |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
It is a rather typical younger sibling strategy |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
The "cute and helpless" card |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
As far back as I can remember, everyone felt a compulsion around him, to do things for him. My mother used to actually DO his homework when he was small |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
sure |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
The reason it is so hard to see is that it is very probably preverbal |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
Which is why avoiding conclusions is so essential |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
And a couple of my brothers were sort of playing a "junior daddy" thing with him |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
That makes sense |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
constantly telling him what to do, and chastising him |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
In every destructive family there is brutality and sentimentality |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
he got the role of sentimentality |
 JP-werk to GregG: |
two sides of the same coin |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
Children are always forced to play the various alter egos of destructive parents |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
my god. my father used to describe the five of us, as extensions of himself. |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I never made the connection |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
I got the role of my mother's sentimentality; my brother got the role of her cynicism and rage |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
I had to take the role of her sentimentality because of my emotional sensitivity |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
sorry, back |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
my father did the same thing with me and my brother... we even share the same first name |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
do you think that's what's going on here, too? |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
my brother, who is a much colder person, got the other role |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
what do you mean? |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
well, actually, it's pretty much a universal in sick families, so yeah. |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
It must have been similar for us |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
and what do you mean by "got the role of" |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
that you were programmed to act out sentimentality? |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
or that you were the recipient of it? |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
Stefan, you said that by 'exceptions', I'm tying to say that some people with an incurable condition MIGHT somehow be able to beat it. I'm sorry if this is how the conversation came across, but what I really mean is that given my knowledge of psychotherapy, it seems that it's difficult to "know" that some conditions are incurable |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
do you agree with this? |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I know I acted out cynicism and rage for many years. |
| worger to JP-werk: |
whoa thanks for saying that, just saw it in my family, but my bro got my dad's name |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
sorrry, chromecrash |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
brb |
| GregG to JP-werk: |
FF FTW |
| JP-werk to worger: |
my brother and i used to both work for him, and he said to some client "yeah hahahahaha we're training the next generation of Software First" |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
i'm in chrome |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
it's a beta  |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
again, I think that it is so important for us to be precise in our terms |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
what was the last thing you saw? |
| JP-werk to worger: |
i remember feeling completely humiliated when he said that |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
I was not "programmed" |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
I was assaulted |
| BobC: |
chrome has a couple of issues so far :/, but I like it |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
if that makes sense |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
yes, it is very fast |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
oh right. you're right. I need to pay better attention to that |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
I have to keep reminding myself of that as well |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
but do you see what I'm getting at? Maybe it's BOTH! Maybe we're both inflicted, and conditioned to act it out through the infliction.... |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
both what?, sorry |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
is there a distinction there? |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I was wondering what you meant by "got the role of", in reference to sentimentality and cynicism |
| |
bockman joined the room. |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
whether that meant being inflicted with it, or acting it out.... |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
well, sorry, I should be more precise in that as well |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
"was assaulted for not taking on the role of" |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
for instance, when my mother would become sentimental after the abuse |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
if I did not "go along" with her sentimentality... |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
well, we all know the end of that story |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
oooh... oh my god. |
| JP-werk: |
bam.  |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
yes |
| JP-werk: |
stef... |
| JP-werk: |
i don't remember sentimentality |
| JP-werk: |
doesn't mean it didn't happen but |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
well, the mechanisms are different in every family |
| JP-werk: |
right |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
although there are not that many mechanisms |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
my brother tom - he had this bizarre ritual, after he spanked one of his kids, they had to hug and say "I love you". It was so sick. |
| worger: |
yeah, I'm very curious about this "taking on the role" part |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
avoidance, simmering resentment, coldness |
| worger: |
would love to hear it spelled out like i"m kind of slow |
 bockman: |
omg |
| bockman: |
that's revolting greg |
| JP-werk: |
yeah, there are only a handful of defensive personality structures in the world, as you've said before |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
that is very common in Christianity |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
deMause talks about that as part of the primitive parenting rituals |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
yeah. |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
its stomach turning |
| bockman: |
oh fuck that is sick, Im srry but i just had a flood of adrenaline at that image being played out |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I was terrified when I first saw it happen |
| JP-werk: |
my parents certainly became sentimental well after they stopped beating me... |
| JP-werk: |
GG, when was that? |
| Stefan Molyneux to bockman: |
that is because we have all experienced it, whether it is explicit or not |
| Stefan Molyneux to bockman: |
you have too I am sure |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
2002, maybe 2003? |
| bockman: |
yes |
| |
Straalvin joined the room. |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
So, I would have been punished for not being cynical. |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
still not quite precise enough |
 Straalvin: |
hello philosophers |
| JP-werk: |
"punished" |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
being sent to the naughty corner is a punishment |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
assualted |
| worger to GregG: |
your parent were cynical? |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
yes |
| worger to GregG: |
(that was the word parents) |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
and my brother would have been assaulted for not being 'helpless' |
| JP-werk: |
imagine what your mother would have done had he said "no mom let me do my homework" |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
yes |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
by all of us |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
|
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
the roles are brutalized prisons |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
no! |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
not by all of you |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
only by your parents |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
and you would only have attacked him because if you had not attacked him, you would have been attacked by your parents |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
it was not voluntary on your part |
| JP-werk: |
sort of a "i'll hit myself" by proxy? |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
I had to play my role |
| JP-werk: |
"shoot him or i'll shoot you" |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
in order to survive |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
yes |
| |
_-~*Candice*~-_ joined the room. |
| |
bockman left this room. |
| JP-werk: |
are there families where the older brother "takes a beating" for the younger brother? i was suddenly struck with that image, but i can only remember ever seeing it as a hollywood depiction |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
and as a consequence, I end up with no chance at anything but a relationship full of pain with him, because of all the history... |
| Stefan Molyneux to JP-werk: |
I have not heard of such a thing |
| JP-werk: |
like some sort of romantic, noble older brother |
| Straalvin to JP-werk: |
that was more or less my family |
| worger to Stefan Molyneux: |
so above when you said "I got the role of..." could you also word it like "I was beaten into the role of...."? |
| JP-werk to Stefan Molyneux: |
yeah, i've only seen it in tv shows |
| Stefan Molyneux to JP-werk: |
I think that is just more sentimentalization |
| JP-werk to Stefan Molyneux: |
and movies |
| worger to Stefan Molyneux: |
or manipulated into it if there was no physical abuse? |
| JP-werk to Stefan Molyneux: |
yeah, that makes sense |
| Stefan Molyneux to worger: |
there is always the threat of physical abuse or abandonment |
| worger: |
yes, abandonment = death |
| JP-werk: |
if you don't submit to physical abuse... |
| worger: |
I'm just wondering if I understand the roles thing more or less |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
if he keeps going down the path he's going, then yeah |
| JP-werk to GregG: |
i would say so |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
it's like, in this case, the history is too much to overcome |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
we have no choice but to part ways, or continue this sysiphus-like attempt at rolling the stone uphill that will never go over the top... |
| BobC: |
sorry for rehashing this... but Stefan, did you get the message I posted when I came back? (about therapy) |
 Pk.Sage: |
brb |
| GregG: |
I don't want to close the door. |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
sorry, I did not see it, let me have a look |
| BobC: |
i'll go find it, hang on |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
thanks, I cannot see it |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
for the diamond plus donators, the two "troll" |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
podcasts are up now |
| JP-werk: |
k |
| BobC: |
Stefan Molyneux:
Stefan, you said that by 'exceptions', I'm tying to say that some people with an incurable condition MIGHT somehow be able to beat it. I'm sorry if this is how the conversation came across, but what I really mean is that given my knowledge of psychotherapy, it seems that it's difficult to "know" that some conditions are incurable |
| JP-werk: |
thx |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
got it |
| GregG: |
Would I be exploiting him, if I keep letting him reach out to me? |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
well I certainly don't want to describe emotional motivations where none exist, so I totally accept what you were saying, that you were aiming for precision |
| Stefan Molyneux to BobC: |
based upon the knowledge that you had |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
well I think that you would know the answer to that question |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
http://freedomainradio.com/board/media/p/136558.aspx |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
part one |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
http://freedomainradio.com/board/media/p/136559.aspx |
| Stefan Molyneux: |
part two |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
you're right. I do. |
| BobC to Stefan Molyneux: |
ok, I mean I'm sure I have plenty of issues. But in all honesty, I don't really think I have a problem accepting that some people are medically incurable. Psychologically speaking though, I know much less about it (well, I know nothing about medicine either, but that's a more visible fact), but it seems that these things are more complex |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
"I hate the answer" isn't exactly a valid counter-argument... |
| |
Dio left this room. |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
well the reality is that a therapist cannot counsel his own children, or his own wife, or her own husband |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
due to the complexity and depth of the history, and the possibility that we are a core part of the problem, family members simply cannot save each other that way |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
it is endlessly tempting for us to do so |
| Stefan Molyneux to GregG: |
but it never ever works |
| Pk.Sage: |
back |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
yes. tempting because of care. if i didn't care it wouldn't be tempting. |
| BobC: |
brb |
| GregG to Stefan Molyneux: |
and the truth is... he's the one closing the door. not me. |
| |
Nala joined the room. |
| JP-werk to |