Freedomain Radio

I heard a while back about some fellas translating Stef's articles into Spanish.

Is there any demand for the articles in French? if so i'd be more than happy to help out and have some contacts who could help in checking through the drafts.

It'll be a good learning experience for me anyways, i would so love to be able to spread the word out to those who don't speak english!

Any thoughts?

Tom

I think it would be a good thing to hook them with if there is someone spreading the word in the french league. I figured out that there are a bunch french anarchy "anarchie" groups on facebook but my french is really bad so I didn't post anything. With french you also get some Swiss and Belgium people. I started translating RTR into German for some fellows over there ( I hope you don't mind Stef ) so if you need the translation let me know. It will still take some weeks though.

I'd be happy to help check through the drafts if you'd like.

Brilliant! I'll get right on it. If i meet anyone who might be interested in the German translation i'll drop you a line =)

Merci Lily et Charlotte!

Thanks, I really do appreciate your initiative in this area, but I think it is only fair to warn you that the translations of FDR materials to date have met with remarkably little success -- only a dozen or so of the Dutch versions of On Truth have been purchased or downloaded.

The challenge is not the translation particularly, but rather the promotion of the translated work. If I were you, I would not spend the time and energy to translate anything unless and until I had a way of getting the word out to those who speak French or German or whatever.

The fellow who translated On Truth was very capable, but he never got round to promoting the book on Dutch forums, and of course I can't do that because I don't speak Dutch, and so it sort of died on the vine, if that makes any sense.

Yes of course, I can see how translating articles first puts the cart before the horse. I certainly think it'd be a worthy adventure for me to scout around french forums and work out the options regarding posting/promoting books and articles.

I've started on a translation of the FAQ articles which I've acctually found tremendously useful for improving my own skills in this area. So in a sense it's necessary for me to have a bit of a go before I can promote anyway.

While i'm at it, I'll have a look round for english forums too. I'm sure there'll be plenty of things I can do to raise FDR's profile amongst the Sheffield university students!

Thanks again for the heads up!

Another thing....I've heard that most Germans/Dutch are fluent in English. A lot of French people too.

The more successful translations would have to be in languages like Arabic, Chinese, Hindi, Russian - languages on the up and up, with few english speakers, where lots of corruption exists.

Thankyou for your input i shall see what i can do. i won't attept those languages myself of course but i'll try to make the right friends and contacts over next year at university.

Interesting. So this whole thing made me doubting and feeling nervous and I started wondering why. And then I was thinking about the people I wanted to send the book to and started examine the relationship with them and my intent. I made up a story that they were able to speak/read English but probably would never read a book in English if they don't have to due to the lack of practice and the complicated language and heavy content. I know that the books would be really helpful for them but what does it matter if they don't want to be helped? So I already assume deep down that they won't read the English one for whatever reason ( skills, convenience, dislike, resistance ) Right. Another one way street. So I am changing my approach. I will first send them the link for English version and wait for their feedback. Even if they only understand 70 percent they still will understand what it is about after a few pages and then they can get back to me and ask me for a partial translation or help.

I was postponing the certainty about what my relationship with them is about. They don't have the curiosity to ask themselves why they are repeatedly trapped in the same situations over and over again and lately they even stopped asking me because they probably fear my answer. What sense does it make to do them a favor they didn't ask for? It would only reinforce my illusions about them. Actually I think I would harm them more then help because my distraction would slow down the process in which the anxiety builts up to the degree that is necessary to remove the spot light from other people and focus on themselves. Then they would get a chance to ask: Is it me? Once they have doubt they can ask for help and with it comes the chance for growth.

So I stay focused on the forums and hope that someone who is already at that stage will read my posts instead of expecting a first grader to read. I will give them letter by letter if they ask and if they don't the gap simply becomes wider and wider until you can't jump over it anymore.

Man, that was helpful . I wonder if I expected that when I posted it in the beginning...

Wow thank you so much for sharing your experience about this. I'm having some trouble following the story though so i have a few questions for you. You can reply by email if you like if any are too personal too, i'll whisper my email in the chat window.

When you say the gap becomes wider and wider do you mean by their lack of contact with you? Or have i misunderstood completely? Also, and this may sound like a silly question, but how did you come to speak dutch? Is it your first language? Can you tell me more about your relationship with these people too? How did you meet them, and what are your feelings around doing all the work of translation for them? (or are there others who you want to share it with too?) For what reasons does it feel like a one way street? Are they reading the english version now?

Lily Lucerne:

I will give them letter by letter if they ask and if they don't the gap simply becomes wider and wider until you can't jump over it anymore.

I found this a beautifully poetic way of capturing your feelings about the situation and i can totally relate i think. I gave RTR to one of my housemates to read and i felt a growing anxiety as her feedback turned from really positive ie 'wow this guy is bang on' and 'these insights are just amazing' . . . to negative 'The author sounds too authoritarian' and 'he's too harsh on people who've already gone through life and can't retrace their steps'. (Her bookmark went up to the section where RTR is put into practice . . .) When she started saying these things i totally knew in my gut that this relationship is a dead end so i made no further attempts at finding depth in it. I just replied 'thats interesting' etc until she stopped mentioning the book.

I'd like to get to know you better btw if you fancy a chat sometime?

I am sorry to her about your housemate. Some people need a break and weeks to contemplate in between. I think you did the right thing though when you decided not serve as an anxiety outlet for her.

I don’t mind to share a bit more. I am still amazed what I was hiding from myself.

These are friends I have known for a long time and have been very close with during different parts in my life. I meant gap in terms of approaches to life. Due to the geographical gap the contacts already became less in quantity but remained in quality.

During the last year though I discovered that something changed. There are two friends I was thinking of in particular. They were one of the  closest and became the relationships I am doubting the most to continue right now because I have the feeling based on the last phone calls that we are hitting into different directions or that they don’t walk at all or more accurate that they are walking but in circles. And anytime they did another round they talk to me and give me the same story but with different actors and/or situations.

The last time I was on the phone with one of them I became so anxious that I told her I would feel incredibly tense when she started talking about this old issue and that I wasn’t able to listen to her anymore. She apologized several times and was taking all the blame on herself. Recently, I just got some emails including a similar circumstance and her actually taking another ride on the merry-go-around.

She stopped asking me what I would think about it. I read it like a report and it hurts to let her go. I responded to the parts of the email I cared about and could be a possible foundation to take this relationship to another level. I pointed out the link to RTR saying that this book was very important to me and helpful too and that I would like to share this with her. I hope for her that if not now she will make it to the link one day.

Doing the translation into German would have been a way for me to come to the same conclusion just later in time. At one point I would have start doubting and discovered that it would have been very on-sided what I meant with one-way-street. I still think it will be very difficult for her to read it but well it would initiate the conversation at least.

The other friend became quite defensive when I started talking about situations in the past that were still bugging me. It was challenging but with a positive outcome. For him it will be more of an adventure to look back into his family history. I am pretty sure he will read it but possibly over-intellectualize it and in this way keep it in a safe orbit around his heart.

Lily Lucerne:

For him it will be more of an adventure to look back into his family history.

This is point you make is interesting have you talked much about his history much? or is it that you have had a friendship through growing up? Is he open to discussing his feelings around these personal issues with you? or is he normally as you say, defensive?

Lily Lucerne:

I hope for her that if not now she will make it to the link one day.

Do you think you view the outcome of this as a final test of the relationship between you? Are you considering not seeing them again?

Lily Lucerne:

Recently, I just got some emails including a similar circumstance and her actually taking another ride on the merry-go-around.

I'm unsure quite what you mean here, does this mean she keeps going through the motions so to speak of friendly conversation withought vulnerability, curiosity and honesty?

Lily Lucerne:

And anytime they did another round they talk to me and give me the same story but with different actors and/or situations.

Again, not sure what you mean. are they feeding you a pack of lies do you think? or do you mean when they tell you about their lives they sound as not to have changed whereas you have?

Lily Lucerne:

I am pretty sure he will read it but possibly over-intellectualize it and in this way keep it in a safe orbit around his heart.

With your last part i just have to say i think your wording is brilliant, and i can really relate to having that reaction i think it can be quite a common response. Thankyou for clearing those things up, i'm with you now=)

Tom:

have you talked much about his history much?

I was often at his house since I tried to spend as less time as possible at my parents house. He described all the situations from his past to me. We lived in the same village and went to high school together. I don't really know what is going on with him that he doesn't finally brake with his family. He hates them anyway. I started talking with him about it and there was a moment I could literally hear the drop falling into the well but then he changed the subject and eventually became evasive. Who knows maybe the next time. Maybe he is already reading "on truth" now then I don't have to do all the work. Interesting, do I feel hope? Well, we will see. We talk so seldom this can actually take years to find out.

Tom:

final test of the relationship

Not a test more a discussion, I guess, with the option for both parties to leave any time. The metaphor was about a situation in her life that was repeating and I knew it was not beneficial for her but I also knew it would not matter what I would say because she doesn't listen or ask for feedback at all when it comes to that issue. Its as if you are not existing, a ghost. For her it wouldn't make a difference to talk to a wall.

So I wrote her that I felt first helpless and then angry when I read the part of the email about her new Bob5 and that this wouldn't mean that she has to do or change anything that this would simply be how I would experience it and I would like to share it with her. I wrote her I would dearly care for her and would be thankful if she would answer my questions about why she describes the stories about Bob1 and Bob5 to me, if she was expecting an answer and what her intent was.

Her response:

Dear Lily,

There was a time when we shared everything about our lives.

The last thing I want to do is making you angry or even worst - sad. It is very difficult for me to understand now, what is left I am allowed to say or do without hurting you – and – good forbid I don’t want to hurt you.

How could I assume that you would sense helplessness, when I write about my new lover?

Through your intense focus on yourself – and I think this is very good – you started analyzing everything I write. This is difficult for me. You can’t and don’t want to analyze every situation. That one story about Bob1 annoys you - fine.  But this [new story] is about a total different person who I don’t even know longer than a week and who started playing a role in my life.

I am sorry if I pressed you.

You know what? Now I feel helpless.

So, what do you think about this letter?

I feel hurt. Female hostility can be so subliminal. It looks like a present with ribbons and paper but it is full of shit.

Lily Lucerne:

We talk so seldom this can actually take years to find out.

How do you feel about the thought of puttting off the resolution of your feelings for this long? Is the situation not in your hands? What feelings would taking a more active RTR approach with them bring up for you?

Lily Lucerne:

Its as if you are not existing, a ghost.

That must feel terrible no? How valued does this make you feel in the relationship?

Her response sounds very sentimental, to me it seems like she's belittling your feelings although really it's your emotional response which counts, you know her, and deep down i think you understand every manipulative trap she's throwing at you in this letter. Could you tell me more about how her words make you feel? What is the subtext here? perhaps you might find re-writing it expressing what she really means. . .?

Tom:

How do you feel about the thought of putting resolution of your feelings for this long? Is the situation not in your hands? What feelings would taking a more active RTR approach with them bring up for you?

Weird. I don't really care that much about him I guess. Well, if he is going to respond to my RTR from this weekend I wouldn't mind having a chat once in a while but I doubt it will become as close as it once has been for several reasons. That make me feel sad I am afraid I got swept away in nostalgia.mhhh

Tom:

What is the subtext here?

What I learned from this interaction with her is that people who victimize themselves are most likely as hurtful as the persecutor counterpart. It doesn't really make a difference at all. Both are narcistic, egoistic and emotional blind to the same degree. I am glad that I figured that out because now I can use the the same technique that I use with the persecutor - staying away from them until they evolve. It was a mind opener to realized that she actually took similar ways as my father did when I RTR with him for the last time.

The subtext was...let me see

Its your fault. Calm down. You are a wimp/coward. I am moral superior there is something wrong with you. I knew that I would make you feel helpless, because you told me this the last time on the phone.You are a failure. You are crazy. Don't take everything so serious. [Wow I found one non-defensive sentence!] Do how I say. Shut up. You have feelings? I dare you. I am not interested in your feelings. This is about me. I know better and be careful what you say or I will hurt you.

Your job is to be at my disposal, its all your fault.

This was a lesson.

Thank you so much Tom, you have an incredible way to lead with questions and they made me think a lot!