Freedomain Radio

 I felt weird things as I listened to this podcast.

I experienced Stef as a bit hostile and less empathetic than usual. I also thought there would be a realization about the conditionings and the trauma that has the young man not wanting to change, or so frightened of confrontation.

I experienced the caller as in great pain and fear, reaching out for help and wanting Stef to help him see the evils of his parents, to geing strenth and resolution for the big steps he had to take.

I don't know what has been talked in between in previous calls, so I cannot know if Stef had a reason for not addressing this block the caller had.

Any thoughts on this?

Hey Victor, I found your post very interesting because I had a very different reaction. I felt the young man to be manipulative at first and I found many of the points to be wildly helpful for me (especially the information about the roles of the husband and wife in a family). I felt clarity and enthusiasm by hearing this.

Would you be willing to discuss your feelings during this podcast more. The only really information you gave about your emotions was that you felt weird? Tell us more about the weirdness and what it felt like at different points in the podcast! I'm really interested to hear about your experience!

 You are right. I did not talk much about how I felt.

I did feel the young man as manipulative and evasive. I actually felt Stef as bored of the tactics the young man tried.

I liked the stuff about the role of people in the family and the approach of asking what would these people where without him in the house, without children.

But I was kind of expecting Stef to let us and the young man know why he was that manipulative. I wanted to learn the origin of this strong attempts by the young man to control and frustrate Stef. I want to know that so that I can stop doing it myself.

I know this results from the traumas and the adaptations we make when we are young growing up with parents like those. But if it's out and clear, I could gain tools to go in and try to change that.

I don't have a therapist. I've been dealing with these things with my mecosystem and with honesty. I am very much manipulative and wish to stop being so.

At the end of the podcast I felt this was not explored.

What do you think?

Well I have had a number of conversations with this young man before, over the last 18 months, and this is certainly not how I would introduce the topic to someone...

Those are interesting points and I understand about not having a therapist and working all this out for yourself (i'm in the same boat). You are right that the root cause of the tendancy to manipulate and procrastinate was not discussed but I think the root cause of this manipulation and procrastination was discussed in the part about dissecting the motivation of the parents for keeping him around. As in, there is significant pressure that was not conscious to him for him not to move out; now that he is aware of it, my understanding was he feels more empowered to do something about it.

I'm not sure about your situation, but I no longer live with my parents. So my difficulties come with historical rules and manipulations that i continue to enforce on myself (rather than active rules and manipulations that the man from the podcast was enduring). So an analysis of root causes for me is going to look different than root causes for him (because he is still living it). Does that make sense? Does that help?

When I read your second post I felt a disconnect from the first post you posted. In the first I felt like you experienced some anxiety and frustration at the way Stef handled conversation with the caller. You said he you experienced him as hostile and perhaps bullying the caller and that the caller was genuinely reaching out for help. In the second it seemed like you acknowledged the manipulations of the caller and that Stef was bored of the tactics. I'm feeling frustrated by this switch and I wonder if there is some dishonesty with this conversation. I think a discussion of you feeling pertective of the caller and bullied by Stef would be an interesting one! I would prefer it if you don't want to have that conversation that you be honest with me about it. Thanks!

 You know what, you got it.

After I posted the second time, I read the first and realized the same disconection. I think my first post was a manipulation from me to stef because I felt I didn't get what I wanted from the podcast. THis is the sort of stuff I do and I want to stop it.

I remember posting the first words totally calmed. After my second post I became a bit scared of how I could think, feel and do something manipulative as if it was completely normal behavior. I'm scared of how much of this stuff I do to myself and to others.

Now I'm sad. And I fear that my sadness comes to get some empathy from you. THis is really confusing, because I think I don't need your empathy, that much, but your help.

Manipulation to this degree is very confusing. You don't know if you own your actions.

The truth is that I defooed and I'm on my own. I still have some of the old kind of relationships and I'm working on some new, voluntary relationships.

At this point I think my tendencies to exesive manipulation are vestiges from my Foo imprisonment.

Help is greatly apreciated.

Thanks.

Hey Victor, have you tried RTRing with yourself about this post? What feelings occur for you before you manipulate? That seems like a better place to start than sadness after your manipulation is pointed out. What do you think?

I think you are right that your tendancy to manipulate comes from a defense in your childhood. Do you still find this tactic successful? Are you still in highly manipulative relationships?

 Well, I guess I need more information about manipulation. I'm not aware of most of it, to be honest. It has been most of my life the way I've interacted with most people, so It really is hard to stop or even recognize it.

I'd like to hear a podcast about this topic. I'd like some techniques to spot the behavior and some first principle views or approaches to the problem, so that I can address it on my own.

On all of the things discussed here in FDR I've confronted by myself. I have had success in many aspecs and I think this is also something I can free myself from. It would certainly be another important victory in this campaign against illusion.

Thank you for your honest interest.

best of luck to you!

Hey Ned, that seemed a bit dismissive - what were you feeling?

Oh sorry, not at all! It seemed to me that Victor was winding down the conversation but I am of course willing to continue if he wants to. There's not a whole lot I can do about whether you, Stef, do a podcast or not on the topic, if you know what I mean.

Victor, do you wish to continue our dicussion? I felt like your post didn't provide much to work with related to the questions I posed in my last response. You also expressed a desire to work on this problem on your own again. What do you feel when interacting with me about this issue?

Nedsferatu:

Victor, do you wish to continue our dicussion? I felt like your post didn't provide much to work with related to the questions I posed in my last response. You also expressed a desire to work on this problem on your own again. What do you feel when interacting with me about this issue?

 Well, I feel genuine interest and kindness. I also feel an urge to let you know you are not adecuate, or you don't know enough, or you don't have experience, or something. Like if I wanted to put you down.

That could be the trap. Get you to care, then make you feel bad for not being up to it.

I'm just moving by what I can honestly bring out. There is some hostility below my words that is shoring up.

It's taking me a lot of time to write this.

I don't know why I should feel like this or still be experiencing this mindset. I have gotten rid of most of the ilussions in my life. I even had a battle to rid myself from God. I'm no longer afraid of the dark. But perhaps there are still things I'm doing which are not virtuous that cause these tactics or defenses to still be needed.

The moment I realize what it is, and I face it with courage and honesty, I guess I'll be able to drop them.

I'm not sure I'm making sense now, but I don't want to edit this post.

Let me know.

So if I understand this correctly, you feel an urge to insult (manipulate) when offered help.

This seems to fit with your response to Stef's podcasts as well. What do you think? Is it the same emotional response that made you feel wierd when listening to the podcast, or was that different?

Nedsferatu:

So if I understand this correctly, you feel an urge to insult (manipulate) when offered help.

This seems to fit with your response to Stef's podcasts as well. What do you think? Is it the same emotional response that made you feel wierd when listening to the podcast, or was that different?

 I don't think it goes that way. I think this manipulation stuff lies embedded in my core, and whenever it is threatened to be exposed, even by myself, it schemes to trap the efforts of others and myself, to prevent me from bringing out into the light.

I've noticed myself running away from a convo with stef, and also shying out of the chat. I guess my pretext has been that I'm not ready, but now I thik I've been protecting these defenses.

I am afraid that when I don't have them, I'll be open to manipulation from others. This is irrational, because I am manipulating myself. Like we can't have armed neighbors, so lest arm the government.

While I type, I'm getting dizzy. Like if I was nearing a dangerous ground. I'm imagining myself exposed, calm and open to true friendships, and all I feel is fear.

Victor:

 I don't think it goes that way. I think this manipulation stuff lies embedded in my core, and whenever it is threatened to be exposed, even by myself, it schemes to trap the efforts of others and myself, to prevent me from bringing out into the light.

I've noticed myself running away from a convo with stef, and also shying out of the chat. I guess my pretext has been that I'm not ready, but now I thik I've been protecting these defenses.

Ok, sure I get that, but I think part of your power over your capacity for manipulation is you now recognize that you do it and when. Plus you have a strong community to help you break down this defense. Are these not the tools you need to start tackling this issue head on? I believe you stated your desire to face this beast head on in a previous post.

Victor:

I am afraid that when I don't have them, I'll be open to manipulation from others. This is irrational, because I am manipulating myself. Like we can't have armed neighbors, so lest arm the government.

While I type, I'm getting dizzy. Like if I was nearing a dangerous ground. I'm imagining myself exposed, calm and open to true friendships, and all I feel is fear.

I understand and sympathize with how scary vulnerability can feel. I only recently started to examine my own capacity for vulnerability after it became apparent I had many defenses around this issue. I certainly understand how it feels like exposing your stomach for someone to punch it.

What helped me start to show bravery to being vulnerable was two points: The first was recognizing that this defense came from a childhood of constant attack when i showed vulnerability. Being a childhood defense, it is not useful to me anymore: i provide for myself and have control over my life now; so continuing to be prone to this defense meant I was still being controlled by those that hurt me as a child. I don't need that defense anymore because if someone takes advantage of my vulnerability it says more about them than about me. It is great to see how people I interact with react to my vulnerability and I now use it learn more about those I interact with. It feels great not to feel like I'm about to cry when my feelings get hurt.

Telling you that i used to feel like crying when someone hurt my feelings makes me feel vulnerable and it took some will power for me to write it. My hope is that my honesty will be helpful for both of us not only for the quality of this conversation but to increase the intimacy of our new friendship.

Can you think of any examples from your childhood of how you were treated when you opened up? or cried? or expressed love?