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Latest post 07-31-2008 7:03 PM by Colleen. 20 replies.
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  • 07-29-2008 2:59 PM

    Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1113_Families_Abuse_And_History_Part_2.mp3

    video:

    http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1114_Freedom_Desire_Slavery.mp3 (a must listen)

    http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_1115_Sunday_Show_July_27_2008.mp3


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  • 07-29-2008 3:53 PM In reply to

    • Lucifer
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 07-20-2008
    • Baltimore
    • Posts 23

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    Hmm. To what extent is your view of a malleable human nature consistent with evolution? Or more specifically which if any biologists or evolutionary psychologists do you agree with? I don't see human nature as particularly malleable, so a biological basis for aggression makes more sense to me than a developmental one.

     

  • 07-29-2008 4:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    Sorry, I don't understand the question - do you mean that you believe that early childhood assaults or traumas have little or no effect on later exhibitions of aggression?


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  • 07-29-2008 4:54 PM In reply to

    • Lucifer
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 07-20-2008
    • Baltimore
    • Posts 23

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    Strawman argument.

    But I believe aggression emerges in the absence of childhood trauma and that not everyone victimized in childhood becomes violent so I don't think it's the answer to all political violence that you think it is. I understand that your blank slate view of human nature is still acceptable in some circles, especially cognitive psychology, but it's not the view I subscribe to as a student of evolutionary psychology.

     

  • 07-29-2008 5:02 PM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    I'm sorry Lucifer but I don't understand your assertion, 'Strawman argument'. Are you stating that Stef's request for further clarification of your thoughts before he responds is a Strawman Argument? If so, I think it's possible you're not familiar with the common definition of a Strawman Argument-- although I'd be happy to be corrected on that.

    Dave

    "As a vivid, living value, the nation-state as an object of worship and a source of practical and moral solutions is as dead as King Tutankhamun."-- S. Molyneux

  • 07-29-2008 5:50 PM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    I really enjoyed the episode 'Freedom, Desire, Slavery" and I agree with the majority of it, but I come across feeling empty afterwards.  Having no unchosen positive obligations and living voluntarism in my own life is not going to make a difference against state martial law doctrines.

    In my opinion living free can only begin on a platform of relative frugality, mobility and self-sufficiency that allows you to exist in the face of state oppression.  That is if you actually practice what you believe in your head.

    For example, many here agree that taxation is immoral, yet how many plan on avoiding it?

    How about vehicle registration? Permits of any kind? How many people trade in private currency rather than use the legal tender fiat notes?

    Has anyone looked into Agorism as a possible solution?

     

    Who does or plans to act as a sovereign individual? Anyone join the Republic of Lakota or the Free State Project to avoid taxation or other oppressive laws?

    Are these questions not important?

  • 07-29-2008 7:38 PM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    I'm a little confused about the asserion early in 1114 that humans have spent the majority of their existence as slaves. While, obviously, pre-historical hunter-gatherer humanity might not have been the most appealing or 'free' time in our history, I doubt characterizing it as abject slavery is useful in relation to slavery's modern conception. Calling tribal humans slaves seems to be akin to calling a worker ant a slave to the queen ant. It may be analogous to slavery because of its hierarchy, but - as some anarchists are wont to disagree - not all hierarchy is slavery.

    It seems that this mistaking of hierarchy for slavery is played out in the assumption that primitive tribes were centered around violence. I certainly don't know for sure one way or another, but I don't think the thought is fleshed out enough. Certainly a tribe could be centered around elders without also being centered around the opressive edicts of those elders. Hypothetically, one could become an elder by devising a method of tracking a buffalo pack, or a new use for a buffalo leg bone, or some better way to sew together buffalo hides to make coverings to survive the winter, ad infinitum. Then, in the first case, if the elder's recollection of the buffalo pack's roaming path consistently fails to bring the tribe to the pack iteself, the elder's 'elite' status in the tribe would be diminished. Wouldn't this situation essentially be the definition of voluntarism? Actually, the survival of a tribe that did not work this way would be severely diminished, simply by the fact that its members would not be best equipped to adapt to survive. Because of this, I don't think the assumption that hunter-gatherer humanity was based around 'slavery' is accurate.

    Of course, our hypothetical tribe does leave room for the eventual growth of religion and the state because some tribal elder could have randomly eaten some peyote or something when they had a revelation about using one tree limb over another for a bow, thus attributing the subsequent increase in the tribe's survival to a higher power embodied in the elder. Then the tribe member must follow the elder because of his un-falsifiable connection to the higher ideal, and no longer follow him because of his usefulness to the tribe's survival.

    I only bring it up becuse the premise of the podcast is that our desire for freedom does not come from us actually having anything resembling freedom in our past, which I don't think is the case.

    Even if we assume that tribal life was based around violence, where did the violence come from? It was stated that, "true propaganda requires an excess of resources," and I doubt anyone would contend an excess of resources was a feature of hunter-gatherer life. Therefore, the violence of the tribe must be innate because it could not come from propaganda. So, assuming that violence, slavery, and the state are irrational, the innate tendency toward violence seems to go against the claim, "human beings are not innately crazy or irrational." (I feel like i'm cutting a little close to quote-mining hereGross!.)

    I don't know If I explained my confusion well enough in that last paragraph, but it's bedtime and I am sleepy.

    Daniel

    Always remember to keep TEDE ALARA and DYODD.

  • 07-29-2008 8:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    Sadly, the earlier we go back in time, the more violent and abusive the societies become, particularly towards children...

    There is no golden age but what we make here, in the future...


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  • 07-29-2008 9:40 PM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    Stef, these two Family, Abuse and History videos are very moving. Listening to these kinds of things is to hard but so necessary I think. I really had no idea the extent and depth of sexual abuse in children, that article just blew me away.

     

  • 07-29-2008 9:56 PM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    Does anyone have a link to the studies about brain development in heavily abused children? I would really like to have a read of them.

     

  • 07-29-2008 11:11 PM In reply to

    • Lucifer
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 07-20-2008
    • Baltimore
    • Posts 23

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    bockman:

    I'm sorry Lucifer but I don't understand your assertion, 'Strawman argument'. Are you stating that Stef's request for further clarification of your thoughts before he responds is a Strawman Argument? If so, I think it's possible you're not familiar with the common definition of a Strawman Argument-- although I'd be happy to be corrected on that.

    Dave

    Stefan didn't answer my question--and he has no obligation to--but his request for clarification was a rhetorical device. He responded by rewording my position into something I did not say and which most people would not argue. I just wanted him to affirm what I already knew, that he rejects the evolutionary account of aggression. It sounds like he is arguing that humans would be pacific noble savages in the absence of child abuse. This is my main objection to the video. But even chimpanzees, our closest living relatives, engages in wars, murders, and rapes. Aggression is just something hominids do toward resource accumulation. There are environmental factors as well, but I doubt that the fact that the murder rate per capita is highest in inner cities is a result of child abuse over sociological and economic factors. There is probably a correlation between child abuse and violence in adulthood, but suggesting it is the ultimate deep determinant of violence, genocide, war, etc, requires extraordinary evidence. I'm certain we would find that not all abused children become violent or that all violent adults were abused. And to discount the economic, political, and ideological factors that motivated the rise of the NSDAP, the gulag, or worldwide genocides and suggest they were the product of child abuse couldn't be more bizarre. These issues will need to be confronted before the theory will gain a scientific consensus.

     

     

  • 07-30-2008 7:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    Stef, in your opinion was your request for clarification a "rhetorical device"?

    "As a vivid, living value, the nation-state as an object of worship and a source of practical and moral solutions is as dead as King Tutankhamun."-- S. Molyneux

  • 07-30-2008 7:34 AM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    Oh, I don't think that I need to get involved at this point, this gentleman is having a fine enough time debating "me" without me actually having to get involved...Smile


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  • 07-30-2008 5:20 PM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    Perhaps I was not clear enough above, but it was never my intention to imply that prehistoric humanity was the 'libertopia' we are working for at present. My intention was to theoretically inspect the assumption that prehistoric humanity was necessarily violent - something evidently not worth doing - without doing the footwork of digging up some facts. Now, because of the nature of prehistoric society, most of what we can do to gain information about that time period lies in observing the societies around us that live in a manner similar to the way humanity lived in the time in question. As you say, theory must always bow to evidence, so here it is. (Cue not only the bemoaning of using wikipedia as a source; but clearly the information is from a state institution so must be false.)

    "Hunter-gatherer societies also tend to have non-hierarchical, egalitarian social structures....Thus, full-time leaders, bureaucrats, or artisans are rarely supported by these societies. In addition to social and economic equality in Hunter gatherer societies there is often though not always sexual parity as well."

    "At the 1966 "Man the Hunter" conference, anthropologists Richard Borshay Lee and Irven DeVore suggested that egalitarianism was one of several central characteristics of nomadic hunting and gathering societies because mobility requires minimization of material possessions throughout a population; therefore, there was no surplus of resources to be accumulated by any single member. Other characteristics Lee and DeVore proposed were flux in territorial boundaries as well as in demographic composition."

    Assuming the egalitarian absence of hierarchy is not an aspect of societies centered around violence, this alone should be enough for us to consider the thought of prehistoric humanity as violent as suspect. Also, since we are in the habit of extrapolating information about childhood from adult life, we can see it is likely that violence was NOT an inherent part of the upbrining of prehistoric children. The little information I found in my cursory search on children in hunter-gatherer societies bears this out.

    "Children were very well behaved and treated kindly by their parents and group[16]. Children spent much of the day playing with each other and are not segregated by sex, neither sex is trained to be submissive or fierce, and neither sex is restrained from expressing the full breadth of emotion that seems inherent in the human spirit."

    Something I though of as I was typing up the above has to do with information gleaned from 1113. At one point in the piece Stef was reading, the author mentions how abuse of children stunts the children's psychological development. If we are to assume that violence has been inherent for the entirety of Homo Sapiens' existence, when would these regions whose growth was hampered have developed? Certainly someone arguing for the violence inherent in humanity would not argue they came from before Homo Sapiens; 1) because humanity's large brain size is part of what differentiates it from its ancestors, and 2) by opening the door to inquiry that far open, the proposer allows evidence against widespread violence to come in from all of humanity's ancestors. This would allow us to observe if any or even a portion of the world's other animals, with which humanity shares common ancestors, act with widespread violence. Since fish, birds, cats, whales, etc. are all exceptionally tame compared to the slaughter of 'civilized' humanity, I don't think this would be a path of argument the proponent would want to go down.

    Daniel

    P.S. It should be noted that the piece linked above on Hunter-Gatherer societies gives a warning against generalizing too much. This is something I do not think I have done, as I was fully willing to accept in my previous post that a portion of prehistoric society may have been violent. The warning, of course, works both ways.

    Always remember to keep TEDE ALARA and DYODD.

  • 07-30-2008 9:26 PM In reply to

    Re: Three new podcasts... 1113-1115

    That is very interesting, and it does contradict almost directly the kind of information that I have gotten about primitive societies, and their addiction to violence and abuse. I do know that some of the early "utopian" visions of tribal life was almost completely overturned (see here), and I myself would feel rather concerned about anthropological conclusions from the 1960s - I am sure that more recent work has been done over the last 40 years.

    There is another way to tell how violence primitive societies were, which is to look at the skeletons in the graves and see how many of them died through violent means. To my understanding, when this methodology is taken, violence seemed pretty endemic.

    I know that this is not conclusive, of course, but perhaps we have some people who know more about this topic around?


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