Freedomain Radio

One of the things that has been percolating in the back of my mind, since the days when I first learned of DRO's (especially after the podcast dealing directly with ostracism and isolation as means of "punishing criminals"), was whether the term "punishment" even really applied to the concept of a free society.

In a world where we truly "get what we pay for", wouldn't the idea of "punishment" and even the means by which it could even ever possibly be imposed, become a kind of historical oddity, say, like dunking witches?

As the habit of negotiation takes solid root in society, and the natural inclination for reciprocation is given an opportunity to flourish in a genuine way from childhood on, it seems to me that even the idea of 'punishing' anyone - ESPECIALLY children - would become a kind of unthinkable thought.

It could be I've gone off the Utopia cliff here, but I think it'd be interesting to debate the possibility and efficacy of alternatives to concepts like "punishment", in the context of a truly free society.

 

I would totally agree there. I guess I'll jump off that cliff with ya.

While "punishment" can mean "the just negative consequences of one's actions" (one's punishment for stealing a loaf of bread is to work for the grocer for a week, say), all too often it's used for vengeance or, in the case of child-rearing, preemptive and reactive discipline.

So, for what "punishment" means to society today, I think you're right on the money.

Instead of imposing a punishment upon another human being, an opportunity to negotiate for restitution emerges.

I just get echoes of my own history, ringing back a million years, when one was punished for "not listening" when I think about this.

To even consider a society whereupon such "punishment" is not only not practiced, but vilified... well, it can happen right now, within us.   

Well, if punishment means revenge, my guess is that it will continue to happen to some degree.  How much do you really think that we can reform society?  We never will be perfect. The important thing to realize is, most people are basically peaceful.  This does not mean that abuse does not happen in families, but the abuse that occurs is usually limited by peoples natural instinct to be good.

Hopefully, most people can be enlightened, and violence and punishment will become a rarity.  Thinking that it will happen for everybody is unrealistic.  Besides, isn't punishment at least sometimes just?

Gandhi said that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.  I agree with this as a basic principle, but I think that we should make an effort to treat people appropriately.  If a guy steals from me, I'm not going to steal from him to get revenge (although I'd quite rightfully take my property back).  I will, however, "punish" him by not being his friend and talking poorly of him around others.  Perfectly just in my book.
 

My wife and I have yet to punish our two sons. Ages 4 and 1. They are absolutely great kids.

It can most definitely be done.

I guess it all depends on what you mean by punishment.  If on average, a person who steals a bike only gets caught 10% of the time, then simply having to return the stolen bike (and maybe pay some other fees to make the victim "whole") really wouldn't do the trick to stop bike theft as the expected value of the average theft would still be positive.  There needs to be additional "punishment" fees to create disincentive, but there's no reason this couldn't be done under a voluntary system.

bumpagaweja

The way I see it, punishment involves up to three different things:  revenge causing pain or damage, discouragment to prevent future similar actions, and a public display of the unpleasantness to teach others not to do the same thing. 

The first profits no one but sadists.

The second doesnt need to be coersive, just agree to this retribution contract to fix everything or live with a bad reputation.

The third already happens in the arts.

 

What else would you need to replace punishment in a free market?