Freedomain Radio

Nielsio:

The govt doesn't care about providing good healthcare. The govt does care about transferring money from the taxpayer to itself and it's buddies. It also cares about having people believe in it's virtue. I think the govt is doing an absolutely amazing job at doing all those things. So if we look at education, the type of quality you're talking about is completely different from the type of quality they want it to be.

So the 'the govt is imcompetent' claim is a complete misrepresentation of the nature and goal of government.

So the state is only incompetent if one considers that its "official" goal is the only thing considered.  The official story is the only thing considered too i suppose.  You have a pretty good point here I'm finding your arguments more and more convincing.

So long as the state exists, people will stab each other in the back to reach the top power position.  The people are evil because the system is evil.  The incentives are all wrong.  I have talked to several 9/11 truthers about this.  I basically ask them if they think that there are evil people trying to take over the world.  They answer, "Of course."  Then I ask how this is possible.  They say, "I don't know."  Bingo.  Now I explain the state and Market Anarchy. 

What we have in the 9/11 truth/patriot movement are a bunch of people who already know the evils of the state, just not in full context yet.  Almost all 9/11 truthers are already minarchists in the constitutional republic mold.  They're like 99% there.  The mythology conversation can easily push them over the edge.  All they have to do is see that the evil that is the New World Order arose from the incentives of the state in the first place.

The unstoppable trifecta is 9/11 Truth, Mythology and Market Anarchy.  In that order.

If someone learns that 9/11 was an inside job, then they quickly ask themselves, "How the hell did it come to this?"  Answer: The myth of the New World Order arose through the nature of the state incentive system (projection for integration of actions into the psyche, etc).  ...This discussion QUICKLY turns to a discussion of "What is the alternative?" then BAM!: Market Anarchy

Nathan:

So the state is only incompetent if one considers that its "official" goal is the only thing considered.

Stefan mentioned that intentions aren't the primary criterion of judgement -- actions and effects are.  So maybe it doesn't matter if for example the iraq war was started for short-term profiteering, grassroots hysteria, long-term petrodominance, or because god told our commander in chief to strike.  I think all that matters is how high is the pile of innocents' bodies.  When state leaders are tried for crimes, maybe then motive and premeditation would matter.  But in the court of public opinion should these things matter?

I heard my house mate swearing at his TV the other day, so I asked him what was up.  He was watching some cable news channel's coverage of the war.  After a couple of minutes of him ranting about how the US is completely botching up everything in Iraq, and how their "solutions" are only making things worse, I stopped him and asked him to consider that the goals they talk about on the TV might not have anything to do with the real motivations behind the war.

He accepted that that was most likely true, but he still had trouble letting go of his frustration at the government for missing the official target so badly.

It's really difficult for people to accept that they're constantly being manipulated by the government and the media.  I wonder if it's because the media are so good at the propaganda game, or if people don't want to accept they've been suckered... Maybe that latter point is why the media are so good at what they do...
 

I think it's that people don't want to accept the idea that they've been had, suckered, hoodwinked, bamboozled, ganked, ripped off, gyped, screwed, swindled, fleeced, defrauded, exploited, victimized, hustled, cheated, shortchanged, betrayed, fooled, duped, gouged...

That's why people like my parents would get angry when you point out the logical fallacies in their bad investments with snake oil and religion. 

Rodzilla:

I heard my house mate swearing at his TV the other day, so I asked him what was up.  He was watching some cable news channel's coverage of the war.  After a couple of minutes of him ranting about how the US is completely botching up everything in Iraq, and how their "solutions" are only making things worse, I stopped him and asked him to consider that the goals they talk about on the TV might not have anything to do with the real motivations behind the war.

He accepted that that was most likely true, but he still had trouble letting go of his frustration at the government for missing the official target so badly.

It's really difficult for people to accept that they're constantly being manipulated by the government and the media.  I wonder if it's because the media are so good at the propaganda game, or if people don't want to accept they've been suckered... Maybe that latter point is why the media are so good at what they do...

No one knows how to bully quite like those who have been bullied.  I would imagine that they're "so good at what they do" because they're people who fall for the exact same propaganda.  I noticed in journalism school that the people who were complaining about the media (left- and right-wing people) fell for what are fundamentally the same arguments, though they may be formatted differently.

It's just a big perpetuation machine.  Like Stef says, there's no overarching conspiracy afoot (not to say there aren't any conspiracies) - it's just the nature of the beast.

I would say the media is state biased in general because that's who feeds it all the news with its funded scare programs like "science" and the global warming thing and guilt programs like welfare.

Nathan:

I would say the media is state biased in general because that's who feeds it all the news with its funded scare programs like "science" and the global warming thing and guilt programs like welfare.

The state also educates journalists, and helps pay their college bills...

Rodzilla:

Nathan:

I would say the media is state biased in general because that's who feeds it all the news with its funded scare programs like "science" and the global warming thing and guilt programs like welfare.

The state also educates journalists, and helps pay their college bills...

Like me!   Except I'm no journalist... just a major in it.  Fat lot of good that did!

I haven't watched the video or even read any of the thread.  From my understanding of the theory the presence of smoldering metal could not be explained by collapse alone, and that a plane could not have brought the building down.  But I do have one fundamental question:

What were the planes for?

There wern't any planes?

Stephen_Garrett:

There wern't any planes?

No, if there were no planes there would be no Muslims to attack and no war to wage. No enemy to create.  The state creates enemies (fear and guilt) and uses them to justify its violence.

Nielsio:

Darch:

my architectural technology professor disagrees with you niels

 

On incentives: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QajDxF9uEf4 

 

What are his and more specifically your ideas concerning the complete lack of sequential mechanisms.

Seems sequential to me, and I'm still unconvinced after watching the video a couple more times, although I'm still pondering the falling speed topic brought up at the end. I'd have to do my own calculations rather than listening to the opinion of someone who's methodology may or may not be skewed by personal interest (the guy talking in the video).