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Latest post 03-03-2008 6:40 PM by ash. 21 replies.
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  • 08-21-2006 8:16 AM In reply to

    Re: The Transition.

    Stefan Molyneux:
    Leomarth:

    1) Total slavery.
    2) Six slaves could equal one freeman in a vote (not exact numbers)
    3) Two slaves could equal one freeman in a vote.
    4) Freedom declared, but not a right to vote.
    5) Voting tests (beans in a jar, literacy test, etc)
    6) Full voting rights.

    ...followed by Jim Crow, the draft, and the re-enslavement through the welfare state...

    But, the same outcome could also be said to be the outcome of your example that slavery ended all at once. Your argument has the potential to invalidate both of our positions.
     

    Stefan Molyneux:
    The way we win is to put people on the defensive, since that's how the other side won. And the only way to do that is through the 'argument from morality'. We are slaves not because we don't have a good enough plan, but because people believe that slavery is moral, and freedom is immoral.

    Create a demand for freedom, and the market will supply the 'how'. In the absence of that demand, the 'how' won't mean much I fear.

    I believe it's a two part issue. Show people the morality, show people the way. We are the market right now.
     

  • 08-21-2006 8:36 AM In reply to

    Re: The Transition.

    Greg Gauthier:

    Anyway, the fact is, Leomarth, you're absolutely right. All of these things will be significant concerns after the collapse of the state occurs - but that's because they are already concerns, independent of the existence of the state. The problems of nuclear waste, aid to the elderly and indigent, common infrastructure necessities, and civil services are things that everybody already wants.

    The problem today, is that the state gives us no choice as to how these problems might be dealt with. They choose a course of action for us, force us to pay for it, and criminalize any attempt to innovate or compete against it. So, as I see it, the free market is really the answer to all these problems. That's right. Plain-and-simple: The Free Market. People with needs, people willing to fill those needs.

    The collapse of the state would indeed result in an initial chaos, but for an entirely different reason than the statist believes -  there would be a mad scramble to offer all sorts of services and products that the government currently disallows by means of the gun in the room. But the free market moves quite rapidly - because people move rapidly -- and any attempt to construct one-size-fits-all plans or centralized systems to replace existing government structures, would only slow that process down. People must be free to meet their own needs, as they see fit.

    To me, Anarcho-Capitalism is much more a state of mind, than it is a system to be compared to communist 5-year-plans, or democratic social-medicine programs. The minute we succumb to the demand for comparative social planning, or economic projections, we are playing in the statists sandbox - we are acquiescing to his language, and his frame of mind. We cannot win at that game.

     

    You may be right. I can't discount the possibility that I'm taking steps that others have taken before me.

    Let me lay out why this seems to be an issue for me. I'm not worried about two months after the state. I'm not worried about two years after the state. Things will be worked out by then. I'm worried about one week after the state. Let me lay out a scenario...

    One fine day, the state just up and shuts down. Nobody that works for the state shows up to work because they won't be paid. They are out of a job.

    First thing to worry about, we have a expansive military, without paychecks. Many of them have specialized jobs that have very few applications outside of the state. We saw this when the Soviet Union collapsed. What happened then? Much of the military grade hardware, including the nuclear weapons, were sold on the black market. These specialist may see this as the only option to grab money since no paychecks will be forthcoming. Criminals will have these. It's all nice for every free person to have a small arms, except for when the criminals will have SAM's and M1 Abrahms.

    Secondly are the current government services. Sure, a company will scramble to provide water to areas. However, how long will that transition take? A day, two days? Which company will take over, and how will they bid? Will it just be the first person to step inside the doors of the water company gets to take it over?

    The retired elderly. Sure, in a few days they can find a organization to help them with their food, and perhaps some very nice medical facilities to give them services pro bono, or at discounted cost. However, will they have to starve the first day or three while the registration for these services are clogged?

    It's not the month, or year after total freedom reigns. I know things will be handled by then. It's the first week. We will not be able to convince people to take that first step on faith without showing them a plan to overcome these immediate challenges. Companies take time to setup. Even if it's a day or two. I think its because of this that people rationalize the morality of the current system. It could even be said to be a natural extension to the argument of morality. People rationalize their morality about the government because they feel they have no other choice for now.

    Let me see if I can understand your thought processes on this though. I know that you believe the market will take care of these things; and that the market can move quickly. However, I don't believe people will give the market a chance without seeing a hint of it already in action, or ready to spring into action. So, what leads you fellows to believe that people will buy into this, without knowing how they're going to get there already? 

  • 08-21-2006 9:22 AM In reply to

    Re: The Transition.

    I certaintly won't fight you on that! Big Smile Let us know which approach works best under which circumstances...


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  • 03-03-2008 7:18 AM In reply to

    Re: The Transition.

    [edited]
  • 03-03-2008 2:44 PM In reply to

    Re: The Transition.

    Wowie-Zowie, do I get nervous when I see one of my old posts rising from the dead like that Big Smile ("Oh, please tell me you didn't say something stupid!" Tongue Tied)
  • 03-03-2008 6:22 PM In reply to

    Re: The Transition.

    [edited]
  • 03-03-2008 6:40 PM In reply to

    Re: The Transition.

    wow, necro
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