Freedomain Radio

I want the choice to use the subway, a bike, the bus and not only a car. Furthemore I don't want some state regulation adding to the final cost of a car. I want more then one government services in a given geographic area. In the same way I don't have to move in another country to use linux or mac osX instead of windows.

GregG:

You stated in your long post, that in the state system, the services come *first*. So your analogy fails too, since you're actually suggesting I have a choice as to which dealership I go to, and which car I select (let alone, whether or not I decide to even purchase a car).

 

 

No, the only thing that I was trying to show in my analogy was that a lot of times when you go and buy something you have to pay for things you don't want packaged up in the thing that you do want.  It is true that we would never go out and specifically buy something that we don't want, but we would buy something that we don't want if it's the only way to get something that we really want or need.  My analogy was intended to show that.  I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but I never intended to say anything like "taxation is like buying a car".

webdever:

Carl: I am starting a new web hosting service. You and 500 other 'netizens' will be provided with email, domain, and web hosting for $250 a month. Before payment is due, we will hold an election for the leading roles in the organization. Me and my cousin are candidates for president, we also have a list of candidates for the top executives, who can vote on different parts of the service plan. You may nominate and vote for other citizens amongst your self as well. The details can be changed, but no one can change the fact that you are going to have to pay for theses services every month, that is a given.

You will be sent a bill this october, if you do not pay it we also have a team of armed security personnel and attack dogs who will come to your house and either take payment forcefully, or carry you off to our prison in the basement.

We hope you are satisfied with our services.

I don't know how it is in other countries but in Canada if you don't pay your taxes by the due date there is no team of armed security personal that appear at your door the next day with dogs and guns then drag you off to prison.  You're just slapped with a fine which is a percentage of the amount that you owe.  If this is not paid the fine will grow until finally you will end up in court and eventually jail.  So the situation is not as extreme as you make it out to be.  If you were billed at the end of the month, would you not agree that if you receive and use the services through the whole month then you would owe the company $250, and that they had the right to take legal action against you if you did not pay?

Carl:

No, the only thing that I was trying to show in my analogy was that a lot of times when you go and buy something you have to pay for things you don't want packaged up in the thing that you do want.  It is true that we would never go out and specifically buy something that we don't want, but we would buy something that we don't want if it's the only way to get something that we really want or need. 

That's negative economics. Imagine that there was only one internet provider (let's say they are COX, a.k.a. Cocks), and they have a rule "BUY OUR WHOLE PACKAGE OR ELSE WE'RE NOT PROVIDING YOU WITH INTERNETS. Then you're gonna be forced to pay for Cable and Telephones services, as well, even if you don't want them. And in case you reject their services, they make you pay a huge fee or they throw you in jail. Being forced to do something = being aggressed upon = being a victim of violence.

Carl:

I don't know how it is in other countries but in Canada if you don't pay your taxes by the due date there is no team of armed security personal that appear at your door the next day with dogs and guns then drag you off to prison.  You're just slapped with a fine which is a percentage of the amount that you owe.  If this is not paid the fine will grow until finally you will end up in court and eventually jail.

Is the length of the procedure before they drag you of to jail of importance to the principle? The use of deadly force is the driver for payment for the state and the seduction with good products that of the free market.

Carl:

Yes that's correct.  Everyone has different needs and desires and because of the limitations of a taxation system someone is inevitably forced to buy something they don't want along with the stuff they do want. 

But question you asked me just before this one was whether I ever go out any buy stuff I don't want.  No, of course I don't ever go out to the mall and buy a bunch of random things that I don't need or want.  This is not the right analogy to use with taxation.  A better analogy would be if I go to a car dealership to buy a car (which I want and need) I'm going to have to pay for a few extras that are bundled up in the purchace whether I want to have them or not: car stereo, air-conditioning, sun roof, or whatever.  I may not like the idea of having to pay for those extras but if I want to buy the car I have to.  With taxation I am paying for a lot of the things that I want (medical insurance, road maintenance, clean water, sanitation, etc.) but will have to pay for a some things that I don't want along with it.  It's unfortunate, but that's the inefficiency of the taxation system.  Doesn't make it evil.

I think it's great that you want all those things (insurance, roads, etc.). I'm curious as to how you relate "evil" to things that you want. If a man agrees to allow another person to shoot him in the head, is the shooter "evil"? (Hint: no). But what does this have to do with the case where the shooter shoots a man in the head without permission? If you read UPB, I think you would already know the answer to this question (hint: it has to do with consistency of application of a moral theory and never refers to vague concepts like "evil").

You're nitpicking, the fundamental situation hasn't changed. We'll send you letters for a year/two years/whatever before dragging you off to my jail. Do you still owe us the money we're charging you.

Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} -->  Let me state my point about taxation in another way.

It's a system that we were born in and it's a system that we're stuck in right now.  None of us chose to live in a democratic society that taxes us and we didn’t determine how much we were going to be taxed and we didn't decide on what those tax dollars were going to be spent on.  Whether you agree with it or not government officials get hired to do that, but we do have some say as to which ones get put into office.  The fact is that the way the system is designed everyone needs to pay their taxes.  And whether you agree with paying taxes or not, any one of us would get upset if our neighbor didn't have to pay taxes and we had to.  The system certainly would be considered evil if some of us would have to pay taxes and other people didn't have to without any good reason for this or if one group didn't need to pay as much tax as another without any good reason.  In principle, this is not the way the system is, but if it was I would definitely agree that it's evil.  This is why the arrest of someone who is not paying their taxes is justified: If we are all paying our taxes, then Bob has to pay his too.  If Bob does not pay, he is essentially stealing from the rest of society and getting a free ride while everyone else is paying the bills.  If we all are paying the bills, we WANT Bob to be forced to pay as well OR that none of the rest of us have to pay either.  We are forcing ourselves to pay taxes.  If everyone in the entire nation simultaneously decided not to pay their taxes as a result of this then that's fine as well, it's known as a revolution.  So why hasn't a revolution happened yet?  Well maybe it's because most people don't realize that there is a better way to run a country than by a government, most people are complacent with the way things are and perhaps don't realize the massive inefficiencies in the system.  Perhaps everyone got to see that and recognized that there is a better way then we would agree to stop paying taxes and change the system.  That's why I think a website like this one is important.

As I explained in previous posts, the taxes are paying for stuff we want but we're also forced to pay for things that we don't want.  But everyone has to do this.  There are a set of rules on how much money you have to pay and these rules apply to everyone, and that's fair (again, in principle).  If it was not fair, then the system should be considered evil.  If some powerful government official or dictator introduced a system where one ethnic group had to pay little or no taxes and everyone else had to pay ridiculous taxes, then clearly this is an evil system and the dictator is evil for using it.  It's evil because the dictator and his ethnic group are benefiting at the expense of everyone else without any rational justification, it's only by the dictator's preference.  A system of taxation where everyone is taxed equally, or in the areas where a group is taxed differently there is a good reason for doing so (the poor being taxed less for example), is not evil because no one benefits, it's fair across the board.

Carl:

If Bob does not pay, he is essentially stealing from the rest of society and getting a free ride while everyone else is paying the bills.  If we all are paying the bills, we WANT Bob to be forced to pay as well OR that none of the rest of us have to pay either.  We are forcing ourselves to pay taxes.  If everyone in the entire nation simultaneously decided not to pay their taxes as a result of this then that's fine as well, it's known as a revolution.  So why hasn't a revolution happened yet?

 

What do you think would have happened to "a [anarchist] revolution" if everybody was forcing themselves "to pay taxes"?

retrapher:

 

What do you think would have happened to "a [anarchist] revolution" if everybody was forcing themselves "to pay taxes"?

 

I don't understand your question.

Just for fun, lets pretend you did some thought and discovered that the current system is evil, in theory and practice, how would it feel for you to say that, what would go through your head?

webdever:

Just for fun, lets pretend you did some thought and discovered that the current system is evil, in theory and practice, how would it feel for you to say that, what would go through your head?

Hmmm... I'm not sure.  I guess I'd be upset about it, and upset that I had been deluded all these years.  I'd probably want to tell people about what I had discovered.  Of course as you know I don't think that, so what are you driving at?

It's interesting that you would feel deluded, right? You wouldn't feel like you had made a mistake yourself but that someone else had manipulated you into believing what you do now. Again, just for fun, who would it have been who deluded you and how would that have taken place?

Also, you said you'd want to tell others, who would you tell and how do you think those conversations would go down?

webdever:

It's interesting that you would feel deluded, right? You wouldn't feel like you had made a mistake yourself but that someone else had manipulated you into believing what you do now. Again, just for fun, who would it have been who deluded you and how would that have taken place?

Also, you said you'd want to tell others, who would you tell and how do you think those conversations would go down?

I don't want to play make believe anymore, I don't see the point.  If you have one, please tell me what it is.  Otherwise concentrate on your efforts to prove me wrong, and if you're able to convince me then we can talk about how I feel and what I would do.

Carl:

retrapher:

 

What do you think would have happened to "a [anarchist] revolution" if everybody was forcing themselves "to pay taxes"?

 

 

I don't understand your question.

If everybody thought "X is bad but nobody else is going to do anything about it so I might as well leave X be" then logically "X" would remain forever. In our case, "X" is "paying taxes". You choose to blame tax evaders rather than the tax collectors. If a guy ran off from a slave labor camp, would you be more mad at him for making your workload more or would  you be mad at the foreman who was forcing you to work? The State is not merely a top-down system, but it functions by having it's subjects turn on each other (like how you direct your anger towards tax evaders rather than tax collectors).