Freedomain Radio

I was talking with this guy I know who used to be addicted to hard drugs and, after rehab with the church, is now bringing the word of the bible to people in the comunity.

I told him why I've decided to become an atheist and what are the problems I encounter in religion. I noticed great anxiety in him and his eyes raced around the room while I talked.

The conversation came to a stop when we were interrupted by a friend of mine.

After that, my friend asked me why would I be talking to an ex-adict about atheism when I knew that he would go back to that life if it wasn't for the church.

I felt bad after that. I began to think that I might have talked to him on purpose, knowing that this would cause great distress in him. I am now afraid I might have unconsiously wanted to cause this distress in him.

Any help would be apreciated. 

Is your friend religious?

do you feel happier now that you are an athiest or before when you were religious? (sorry for the assumption there, correct me if you've never been religious)

did you continue to talk to the guy in the same way you were after you realized he was getting very anxious?

If you've read RTR, what would be the most honest response when you notice that someone is becoming very nervous?

Nedsferatu:

Is your friend religious?

do you feel happier now that you are an athiest or before when you were religious? (sorry for the assumption there, correct me if you've never been religious)

did you continue to talk to the guy in the same way you were after you realized he was getting very anxious?

 Yes. My friend is religious now. He goes to christian church about daily. He told me how his family was proud of him now that he left that life. How the comunity is now more calmed that he is not out dealing drugs.

I was just hones with him about my own struggle with religious ideas, as I was heavily propagandized everywhere with religion since I can remember. I was never religious, althought I've tried to modify the idea of God or the Bible; trying to make it more logic. I left this long ago, but I never stopped believing in god. Now, everytime I catch myself wondering, I just discard the idea as too improbable. Sort of like believing in aliens, only less probable.

But the central question I have is that the truth produces a terribly sad moment for people who depend on false and corrupt people and don't readily know it. An episode like that might get this guy back to drugs, and there he would be unreachable again.

For him, I think, religion was overall positive.

Stefan Molyneux:

If you've read RTR, what would be the most honest response when you notice that someone is becoming very nervous?

 The answer would be either ask about his feelings or tell him that I noticed he was getting nervous and what it caused in me.

The thought crossed my mind.

I think that this would have lead him to doubt all of that he is part of now. But this is a guy about 40 and has kids. I don't think that the truth would ease his anxieties. In fact I know he would go back to drugs.

And that is what I am afraid of. If I knew that I could end up screwing up his life as he has it now just by showing him my doubts about religion, why did I do it in the first place? Was I looking for just that outcome?

Was I just trying out arguments just for the fun of it?

I liked talking with him. I liked having amazing answers to his questions. It was fun to talk about the truth for me. And it was also interesting to deal with his arguments and debate his position and mine.

Up until I saw the nervous eyes, when I realized that he doubted.

I felt antious myself. And then the other friend jumped in and told me about the danger of him going back to drugs.

What do you guys think?

I would only say that your speaking to this person about your doubts in God would only be counterproductive to his life if you didn't re-enforce the posative side to a life without God.

If all you did was knock his crutch away from him without helping him see the beauty, majesty & friutfullness of a rationalists life then yes, what you did was probably not the best structured way of discussing his beleifs.

I feel that this is a huge problem with most people when they debate with thier friends about the irrationality of God. As Stef mentioned in one of his podcasts, a person who frees themselves from God can often feel empty. This emptyness has nothing to do with leading a rational life, it's simply the emptyness they have in thier 'soul' after the sparkly veneer of religion is removed.

It's VITAL that if you want to ween someone away from God you have to show them the beauty and wonder we have all around us filling us with a lust for life. They have to understand that God doesn't give thier life meaning or purpose, in reality it strips it away & fills thier soul with lies, snake oil and a cheap immitation of purpose.

Victor:

I think that this would have lead him to doubt all of that he is part of now. But this is a guy about 40 and has kids. I don't think that the truth would ease his anxieties. In fact I know he would go back to drugs.

And that is what I am afraid of. If I knew that I could end up screwing up his life as he has it now just by showing him my doubts about religion, why did I do it in the first place? Was I looking for just that outcome?

Have you had someone in your past who told you that you were responsible for his actions?

Im-postle-able:

I would only say that your speaking to this person about your doubts in God would only be counterproductive to his life if you didn't re-enforce the posative side to a life without God.

 That feels so true. At this point all I think I can do is talk about the negatives I'm avoiding. I'm not much there in the positives I'm to gain. I guess there is another way to look at this that makes the positives show more clearly.

Lily Lucerne:

Have you had someone in your past who told you that you were responsible for his actions?

 All the time. I now know this is a fallacy, but I still wouldn't want the outcome of this guy going back to drugs.

I think that whatever made him live that life is not resolved. Religion just makes you deny reality, and postpond dealing with your issues for when you are dead. If reality catches up to him, and you add to the original problem the knowledge of having had wasted so much time and resources in that lie, it would be really hard to manage for him. And as I know I or others would not be there for him, he would end up back in drugs, as his original venting behavior.

Victor:

I think that whatever made him live that life is not resolved. Religion just makes you deny reality, and postpond dealing with your issues for when you are dead. If reality catches up to him, and you add to the original problem the knowledge of having had wasted so much time and resources in that lie, it would be really hard to manage for him. And as I know I or others would not be there for him, he would end up back in drugs, as his original venting behavior.

I got the feeling you try to figure out what is in his head. You are making up a story. In my opinion you are making assumptions what is in his mind and this is torturing you cause there is no solution to this task because it is impossible to begin with and this would also explain the contradiction that is in your first sentence.

Victor:

 All the time. I now know this is a fallacy, but I still wouldn't want the outcome of this guy going back to drugs.

I know its tough to imagine. But what if you would risk this time that you in fact made him going back to drugs, to say it in your logic, and gain peace of mind for yourself in exchange? How would that feel?

Lily Lucerne:

I know its tough to imagine. But what if you would risk this time that you in fact made him going back to drugs, to say it in your logic, and gain peace of mind for yourself in exchange? How would that feel?

 Interesting. You are clear that for me to know that there's a guy out there I can help see the truth makes me unease.

I think you uncovered the false manipulation in the story I created. I feel unease for knowing I can help, but I don't want to help, so I create a story where I should not help.

I have to tell you, really, really... thanks.

I'm interested in your story, but I'm unclear as to exactly what you concluded here?

It seems as though you've rationalised your fear that your friend might turn back to drugs, by saying that this possibility is only something that you have manufactured in your head, because you might not have been willing to follow through with your friend and help him further.

Is this close, or have I completely misread?

BobC:

Is this close, or have I completely misread?

You got it. And this goes to the core of what I have been trying to do lately; which is dealing with my manipulative tendencies. I now know how it feels when I am manipulating myself and I'll try to spot myself when I do that again in the future.

I can also deal with the block I have for not being honest about not wanting to follow through and help this guy out.

THere is a ton of work to do RTRing with myself from this.

Victor:

 

You got it. And this goes to the core of what I have been trying to do lately; which is dealing with my manipulative tendencies. I now know how it feels when I am manipulating myself and I'll try to spot myself when I do that again in the future.

I can also deal with the block I have for not being honest about not wanting to follow through and help this guy out.

THere is a ton of work to do RTRing with myself from this.

Ok, cool. First of all, I should mention that I don't think you 'manufactured' the possibility (that he'll revert to drug-use) at all; I think it is potentially real. However, the issue that arises from this, is whether you feel that it is your responsibility or not. I don't think there is anything unreasonable or irrational about what you felt following the discussion, but as you indicated, the question is whether you had some kind of deep-rooted motives for entering into the discussion, and subsequently for backing out of it so quickly.

So with the benefit of retrospect, if you encounter a similar situation again, do you think that you would avoid discussing the subject matter altogether? Or do you consider that you might try to follow through with the discussion to try to highlight the benefits of a life without God?

BobC:

do you think that you would avoid discussing the subject matter altogether? Or do you consider that you might try to follow through with the discussion to try to highlight the benefits of a life without God?

what would you do? BobC?