Freedomain Radio

      This morning i was lying in bed with my girlfriend and she flipped on the news i should of just left the room but it was too late I saw CNN's "Black in America special". i realize the irritation people have talking about race especially with a impassioned black male why i put this post in the miscellaneous section, i myself grow weary with this the hot button issue.

      The topic was interracial couples and marriage there was strong tone of victimizing black women that all black men are either dumb, poor, incarcerated or not ready for comitment. That educated black women cant find a man with his own house or perfect credit or who can maintain a relationship and is on their level of intelligence. So what choice does the poor black woman have but to marry a white man... like hes some consolation prize? ( why is it a white male why not indian, asian, or arabic) i was enraged by this infuriated all i saw was RED. and I know i'm being simon the boxer right now but bear with me please.. The "experts" all pointed to most black men being stupid, poor, and irresponsible. well one might ask how the hell do black women think they'll find thier stereotypical black mate if they already precieve most black men as defficient? Not to mention they didnt bring up the case that there are some well educated black men in society who come from upper middle class families, like myself, and still have a abhorrence to the idea of being with a black woman.. they never asked why???? I would say in my case it has alot to do with my understanding of women based on the abusive nature of my "BLACK MOTHER" who in my limited observations are notoriously aggressive and cold.  but  i have met and dated a intelligent upper middle class black woman before and i found her arrogant cold and distant not to say she is the model for which all black women should be judged but in general nobody ever asks the intelligent black male why he doesnt want a black woman  or why hes not with a arabic woman or a asian woman there is absolutely No Curiosity Whatsoever. i personally was raised in middle class and upper middle class white neighborhoods people who i usually get along with come from that social and cultural background, or possess that same kind of intellectual and cutural affluence.  I feel hurt, dejected,  belittled, and spit on by african american women when they say i'm either in jail or a felon or i'm stupid . This only makes me hate them more, they make me feel like a child again with my black mother and i feel distant and hated. How can i love somone who makes me feel like that? 

Also no one on CNN thought it was important enough to ask white women why are they marrying or dating a black man people just assume the stereotypes "hes wild in bed" or " i'm doing it to spite my parents".  My perosonal theory, so take this with a mountain of salt, is that if you take a white girl from the suburbs and introduce her to a black guy for the first time the relationship is going to be defunct and will most likely end. But if you take a white girl or any other girl from another culture from the suburbs and overtime let them have expriences where they realize the humanity of the other person and that the cultural archetypes/stereotypes are all nonesense she is more likely to be accpeting of a black mate. interractial coupling has to me everything to do with humanizing with other people and being empathetic, sympathetic, and open to the fact the your prior assumptions of a person could be absolutely wrong. It is the cutural chains in society that keep us from understanding one another, and the genetic bigotry of the family, it is the glorification as well as the elevation of culture to virtue that holds us all back.  I still fight constantly to detox my mind from the  bigotry and  hatred my father  tried to instill in me about other races . 

As i grew up when i realized that i was black and that black was bad to society i decide to  "F*CK  them all" and said to myself i will look at the world through my eyes as if i wasnt black or white or anything that i was just Ty just that five year old kid who didnt know any better and hung out with those who he got along with no matter there genetic characteristics i was not a race but a Person an individual.   That child like perspective has allowed me to challenge my bias's and  the theories of my bigoted parents as well as society. 

what consumes me with dispair and rage is the constant reiteration of racial stereotypes applied to me by other black people, and the fact that people of other cultures will take the word of these A$$ H@!#$!  sorry but  I am not the Borg,  i am not connected into the black collective  simply because we share a genetic history. I am also not apart of any "other" cultural collective, I am simply HUMAN. I am just filled with bile and rage at society, finding no one guiltless. The digusting propaganda of CNN just takes the cake all those muffin head intellectuals out there actually respect this news channel when it pedals this kind of mindless bigoted crap! i love my girlfriend not because she's white or that she's "forbidded fruit" or  i think shes "superior to black women". I love her because of who she is, her intellect and her own charming personality and her desire to try and strive for self improvement even when it is difficult and her desire to understand truth even when she can get scared of it. she may not share my tenacity but she does share my hope and aspirations. what disgusts me is CNN degrading that to sick mindless stereotyping and then seeing people by this "quatsch" i really need to leave the room the next time my grilfriend wants to watch its just nazi propaganda its absolute horse manure.  

for those who read this and respond i thank you for your time and curiosity, especially when i get volatile lol :)

i cant wait for the day when people stop thinking they are talking to a black man, when they talk to me but to a MAN.

I think in fairness though, some black men have dated white women because of the forbidden fruit aspect. 

HAving said that though.  I think the reasons persons date outside of their race are numerous.  It could be that they find members of x race more attractive physically.

I only think inter-ethnic dating and marriage is a problem if persons from differing cultures are involved.  A white man from France who marries a woman from Taiwan might face such a difficulty, given the individualistic nature of Western societies and the collectivistic nature of Eastern societies.  If persons from differing races within a society, that share cultural similiarities then I don't see the problem.

as i am sure "some" white men  have dated asian women for the forbidden fruit aspect.  but  i'm sure you agree that does not merit extensive generalization to "all". as the only motive for love especially around the college graduate level of intelligence?  or are those people who can accept people and look beyond race and stereotypes anomalies?

yea, i fail to see the point of contreversy between people whos outer epidermal layer reflect a slightly different wavelength of light.  Its beyond illogical and counterintuitive.  I don't remeber ever even noticing racial differences when i was a kid until teachers pounded it ito me, and it still didn't make any sense.  I still think anything but ambivalence to race doesn't matter, and since its not chosen, just like gender, theres really nothing positive or negative about it.  But whenever i point that out i'm called a racist.

"i cant wait for the day when people stop thinking they are talking to a black man, when they talk to me but to a MAN."

 You don't have to wait for that day its always been. If you are talking about the day everyone will talk to you that way, you will have to wait forever.

 It sucks dealing with people who see imaginary things period. In my experience the best you can do is to refuse to acknowledge their imagination and keep focus. This has worked for me to keep people acting "civilized" even if they don't think it. My black wife and my white self had fun with this in South Africa in Pretoria which was the only area not to vote out apartheit. People didn't know what to do around us acting different so they took their cues from us. Once they start acting in the natural way of the situation they realize its easier than acting based on a concept of how they should act in a situation. It works fairly well in interaction but unfortunately it doesn't stop people from just reaction and we couldn't interact with everybody who shouted at us.

 This also worked for me in New Zealnd as a white to maori. This Maori was in my face talking threateningly about his warrior culture. He drew a line with his foot and asked what I would do now. I said I should thank you right? He looked at me a long moment and said yes, smiled, and asked me to play pool with him. In a bad neighborhood outside Nottingham, England it worked as an american to a englishmen too. He came up to me and started telling me how americans are SPAM, spastic, plastic, Axxhole muther fxckers and there is no F in SPAM but who cares. I just smiled and said I have actualy been to the Hormel plant that makes Spam. He wrapped his arm around me and said he liked me and bought me a drink.

By not dignifying the imagination that I was something worth threatening the threat went away. By not dignifying an imagination that our interracial marriage is something out of the ordinary we have never had problems all over the world. I don't care what people think, only how they act. The main problem with this is that it won't work when people withhold interaction.

CNN that's like main stream media right? They like can't even get basic facts right, why do you feel they have credibility when they diverge into the realm of opinion and hearsay?Like.

I agree with your wish for a world where a man can be considered simply for his actions and not for his genes, however, I wonder what are the thoughts that preceed your anger?

The way I look at this is that it's just another mythology that needs to be crushed for us to achieve a society that can be considered civilized, by the standards we have here.  As such, I don't feel anger towards it as a mythology, just as I no longer feel anger towards Christians or even Statists, to an extent.  The people that are continuing the mythology are mostly victims themselves, so I feel sad thinking about how miserable their lives must be with so much hate and dishonesty in them.

It's also not surprising that this continues, especially in terms of the cultural scar tissue that exists in black culture in America.  A Dead Prez song came up today on my iPod on shuffle, and in it was a black woman blaming the government for her son's murder because they have the power to do something to change it.  It struck me as a slave bemoaning the master for not helping her out of her shackles.  It was really quite sad... but it reflects the general slave-morality existant in the culture... Christianity, socialism, etc.  Again, it's sad to think about the misery these slaves are existing in... where they attack each other horizontally, as in the women in the story you talked about claiming how black men were "bad" for whatever reason they had come up with.

I think that your observation that the abusive nature of the black mothers is likely a prime reason for the lack of interest in black women among black men is probably very true.  Again, just sad...

I certainly do look forward to the day when skin color is considered as irrelevant as hair color...

Is "invisible" a color?

I too look forward to a world free from this cultural narrow mindedness. All children i think grow up naturally unawares of such differences. Proof that they are merely inflicted bigotries.

You seem fairly certain that you were having a 'Simon the boxer' moment, would you mind elaborating a little on this? Perhaps it's worth looking into for you?

Thanks,

Tom

Hello the main reason i expressed i was having a "Simon the boxer" moment was because i was raging once again against in what in my mind is the incompetent masses. If I was truly interested in elevating people with my rhetoric i would of expressed anger but without rage and i would have realized that  just because i can see the hypocrisy in thier behavior that doesnt mean they are capable of seeing it. ergo its like accusing a retarded child of being retarded, absolutely pointless! it is far better for me to realize the empirical truths around me.... That for hundreds of thousands of years most people still cannot comprehend or understand yet the idiocy of their bigotry and prejudice and there are some distinct psychological and sociological reasons why.  If i wanted to enlighten the reader i would research these factors in society and present a thesis and try to come up with a solution. But i did none of those things i mearly went into a mad rant. i felt if i didnt i was going to burst or blow a blood vessel so thats why i felt like i was just boxing, not really elevating and thats why i through the post in the miscellaneous section.

"I wonder what are the thoughts that preceed your anger"?

i have narrowed it down to this; it was the assumption that someone  knows my motives and my mind and heart without ever asking me and then professing this lie to the already screwed up masses.  And then having to deal with peoples insinuations about my motives. To me thats a  Mind F^@k!  my parents did this constantly my dad would say that i always thought life was a game and when i was young i had no idea what he was talking about and then he'd say i thought lying was funny... again i had no idea what the hell he meant, i lied to not get beaten! i loathe people who know nothing of me telling me where my head is at when they have no understanding of my past or history or anything they just make up a story based on their bias and then try to inflict it on me. I cant stand that kind of ignorance/cruelty. hope this answers that question

Thanx for the question and i very much enjoy'd all the reponses. its so exciting communicating with people (friends or rivals) that arent brain-dead i was so afraid after college i'd have no one to talk to and my mind would just shrivel up and die, under the glow of the boob tube.

 I hear ya bra... as a Black Man, I have been bombarded with this constant drumbeat that "I'm no good", "I'm some kind of threat"- it gets disheartening... I grew up in the 80s and 90s... that means the beginning of Millenial Blaxploitation thru the means of the media. The Drive-By Media has kept Black Men as the number one nuisance in America. Almost everything in Black America is geared towards the female. I'm used to that viewpoint, but it's still wrong. We have been marginalized and almost cut out of the nation unless we are "house Negroes", athletes (who are non-threatening), or minstrel show/Sambo entertainers who play to the dominant thought when it come to Black America- that's Blacks are deficient, we won't make it unless we have the Government intervene (more like control) in almost every area of our lives. Growing up, I was considered "White-Acting"... I used my God-given talents and abilities to achieve, it wasn't based on me just being myself- ifya saw me, I'm Black... it's really sad to see the outright hatred of Black Men in this nation in this day and time. As a Black Conservative Libertarian, I get more rage, simply b/c I don't follow the DNC's plan to their form of achievement- I can tell you the countless times during the 2 Clinton Administrations when I would explain the real problems in the Black Community (a victim mentality, a lack of strong male figures in the homes and neighborhoods) in relation to the wholesale sweeping legislatures (Rockefeller Drug Laws) and those abominable Zero Tolerance Laws, which declared it Open Season on lotsa Black Men in our nation for mostly nonviolent crimes. Add to that, the discrimination and double standards on almost everything (especially employment and the so-called criminal just-us system) towards us in America... and the worst part, most of our Black Women have bought into the lies, which is self-defeating and sad. I have spent years living my life, disproving almost every stereotype (I used to actively engage ppl in debates on these topics- I quit doing that b/c most Blacks are apathetic to what's going on with our people) that exists about us Brothers. It's just enraging how many Black Men buy into the nonsense that we are deficient mentally, and we aren't true leaders (Mike Vick and DMcNabb5 come to mind). As for the interracial dating, I see so much rage toward Brothers who do date women of other races... makes me think like the discipline of this myth (Black Men lust after White women and Black Men hate Black women) is to make us conform to a minset that will ultimately kill us off... if it is scorn and shame from dating "outside the race", what's next for the race hustlers to try to guilt Black Men into doing? Lotsa times, I have seen so many Black Men get shot down b/c of materialism (the type of materialism that comes with a Feminazi mindset of varying degrees), and no one wins... and the Black girls continue to whine and complain that there are a "lack of Good Black Men" in this country. Interracial dating is a matter of personal choice, just like liking Nike over Adidas.  Last I checked, it was a free country- a man (or woman) can date and mate with whomever they please. I grew up around a lot of diversity during the time I lived in Atlanta. Would anyone want to get with a person or group of people that made them feel inferior? Ya know ya wouldn't. I've seen it so much, but why the anger? What are we supposed to be loyal to? If we are so bad, then why do these females want us to just stay "within our race"? Why does it matter to them? It's just another part of the racist/victim mentality that has gone largely unopposed in America, especially politically. The politicians use victimhood to advance their totalitarian means. Then their acolytes (the Drive-By media) re-inforce these "taboos" and stereotypes through indoctrinous programming and fear/hate filled rumour. Dude, I hear ya loud and clear!!! I was seeing me in ur post. I'm a Black Man that LOVES rock music. Does that make me "less Black"? lolz...

dittotl,while I was reading your post, I kept thinking "Zora Neal Hurston." Have you ever read her essay "what it is like to be colored me"? The reason I say that is because, with an enlightened world-view like yours, life can be particularly difficult, given that you are not meeting the type-cast expectations either of whites or blacks. Hurston, for example, died in destitute obscurity, having been rejected by her black contemporaries for her conviction, and, of course, by whites. Perhaps the rage you feel is the proper reaction to unjustified cultural alienation? I certainly feel very alone in my world views, and I don't even have to deal with the race problem. Also, how does your girlfriend feel about all of this?  

i have no doubt that some of my anger is well justified but if i dont try to generate solutions and understanding then i am just contributing to my own anger. its like being angry at coma patients for not recognizing your in the room. theyre in a coma!.. and the only way those worth saving will see me is if i resuscitate them. as a minority i realize the i have to become accustom to being a teacher because most people simply have way to much propaganda in thier heads to sit down and really try to discover the truth about me.

( in regards to Zora ) thanx for the culture reference but i find that i dont tend to have much in common with historical black figures other than discrimination which most intellectual minorities in general, black or otherwise, have in common. also its doubly hard for me to show empathy to staunch black feminists, taking in all that ive gone over in the above posts.

as for my girlfriend she would normally just agree with me and says its digusting the way intelligent blackmen are treated. but this topic is complicated and perhaps for another time.

thanx again for the post i appreciate the curiosity

Just came across this thread.

I'm not any kind of expert on the subject, but I have seen programs like this, talked to several black people about their experiences, and have been involved in a long-term interracial relationship. I've always noticed an intense diviseness that exists between the genders in the black culture, moreso than many other cultures, and I think it's very, very sad. Sure, the women on the program you mentioned were making some very racist, disparaging generalizations about black men, but if you talk to the black men who date white women exclusively, they have just as nasty things to say about black women. I've heard from black men that black women are "cold, manipulative, high-maintenance, aggressive, combative," and my ex said that he did not tend to date black women because they were "overly jealous, argumentative, and tend to make public scenes out of relaitonship upsets." From what I've observed, black music today carries a lot of these messages, with several songs from men referring to women as "bitches, ho's, and cheaters" while the songs from the women accuse men of being, "no good broke deadbeats, cheaters, and users." Women are seen as empowered for coming out with a scathing diss of a recent ex, rather than finding a good man to begin with, and men are seen as strong for objectifying the women. Each gender wants to blame the other for most of the problems that exist, and everyone is so convinced of his side.

I don't pretend to know exactly why this situation exists, although I have a strong suspicion that it has to do with the nature of the family in black culture and the intervention of the state.  Some people have speculated that the welfare state, which was originally created when the wealth gap between blacks and whites was narrowing, is what drove such huge rift in black gender relations. It makes the man obsolete as the provider. Without a strong masculine figure around, there's nothing to reign in the obsessiveness over the infant that tends to occur naturally in women who merge and bond with their babies. There's nothing to balance out the matriarchal power, which may explain why so many black men perceive black women to be domineering, overbearing, and obsessively jealous. Maybe what we're actually seeing is the catastrophic effects that occur when a man is perceived to have no value to offer, and perceives himself to have no value to offer. All of the black men I've met who have spoken ill of black women have had horribly abusive histories at the hands of their mothers, who were abusive in childhood and increasingly neglectful as their sons grew. Something else I've generally noticed about black culture that I have absolutely no proof of is that the supposed "virtue" of the family, particularly around the mother, seems to be held more fervently than in white cultures. In school, if I ever said that I hated my mother to my white friends, they would tend to empathize and we would exchange stories. If I ever said that to my black friends, they would get wide-eyed and say, "But she's your mother! You should always love your mother." It always seemed that they were under quite a bit more pressure than I was to uphold the mythology of the family despite the reality of the situation.

I also think that dating someone of a different skin color should have as much relevance as dating someone of a different hair color, but given these circumstances, I think people should make sure they're not dating interracially for the wrong reasons, such as a projection of one's familial experience onto an entire race. Although I have less experience talking to black women about this kind of thing, I would suppose that the negative perception of black men comes in large part from the way their father was devalued in the family. This is not to say that there are not patriarchal, abusive black fathers out there, because I know for a fact that there are, but the more common story I hear is about a father who was absent, either in person or in influence over the family unit. And I would guess that there's a lot of unexpressed, unconscious rage toward the father for not being there for protection and guidance.

I know it's probably a little offensive and annoying to have a white person try to explain everything about the black culture, but it's a subject I used to be very interested in for whatever reason, partly due to my former relationship. I found out the hard way that racism is still a really huge problem, even among educated people. There was a lot of racism in my extended family, and I had my suspicions that it was unconsious, unspoken of in my immediate family as well. They really did not want me dating a black person, but said it was because the world was so racist and they did not want me to experience the hardship that would come from that. I countered that I would not want to associate with people who were racist assholes anyway, and they said that I was too idealistic, shutting myself off from opportunities and the good parts of people. This absolutely baffled me at the time, but looking back, it's incredibly obvious as to why they would make these arguments. If you shouldn't associate or value people who were bigoted racists, then what business did they have associating with their own families?