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Latest post 09-23-2008 11:18 PM by StoicSentry. 59 replies.
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  • 09-05-2008 7:03 PM In reply to

    • idontlikeyou
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 09-06-2008
    • Confederate States of America
    • Posts 15

    Re: Will and Determinism

    To claim that determinism rules out responsibility is to fail to understand determinism in the first place.  I am a causal machine who cannot act beyond his hardware and programming.  However I am responsible for my action just as my copier is responsible for printing a document.  If I do something bad I should be fixed of dealt with for the safety of others.

    Impossibel for either of us to change our minds?  I am both a causal machine and causal agent just like all other life and matter.  So punishing crimes and rewarding hard work act upon persons trhough causality.  Now a new piece of data has been added to my programming, the data that if I complete these actions I will recieve these rewards.  Now that new factor goes into my decision making subroutine.  The same is true for hearing your podcasts or you reading determinist arguments, a new piece of information now exerts a causal influence upon you.  The weight of that influence is of course ontingent on a variety of other facts.

    With all due respect your thoughts on determinism don't seem to be based on what the concept spells out or what it's proponents advocate.  Determinism is not destiny or fatalism.  I'm sure that by now enough people have pointed this out and showed you what actual philosophers have to say on the subject, so why do you continue to assert that deteminis negates morality and that it is somehow fatalistic/destined?

  • 09-05-2008 7:34 PM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Sadly, that is all predetermined...Stick out tongue


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  • 09-06-2008 4:15 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Wow, are you aware that you're really rude and uncivil? Anyway, my other question is: Are you asking someone to change their mind here?

    idontlikeyou:

    To claim that determinism rules out responsibility is to fail to understand determinism in the first place.  I am a causal machine who cannot act beyond his hardware and programming.  However I am responsible for my action just as my copier is responsible for printing a document.  If I do something bad I should be fixed of dealt with for the safety of others.

    Impossibel for either of us to change our minds?  I am both a causal machine and causal agent just like all other life and matter.  So punishing crimes and rewarding hard work act upon persons trhough causality.  Now a new piece of data has been added to my programming, the data that if I complete these actions I will recieve these rewards.  Now that new factor goes into my decision making subroutine.  The same is true for hearing your podcasts or you reading determinist arguments, a new piece of information now exerts a causal influence upon you.  The weight of that influence is of course ontingent on a variety of other facts.

    With all due respect your thoughts on determinism don't seem to be based on what the concept spells out or what it's proponents advocate.  Determinism is not destiny or fatalism.  I'm sure that by now enough people have pointed this out and showed you what actual philosophers have to say on the subject, so why do you continue to assert that deteminis negates morality and that it is somehow fatalistic/destined?

     

    "As a vivid, living value, the nation-state as an object of worship and a source of practical and moral solutions is as dead as King Tutankhamun."-- S. Molyneux

  • 09-06-2008 4:42 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    bockman:

    Are you asking someone to change their mind here?

    He is - which  implies  causal  connection between argumentation and  changing one's mind  - which  implies determinism. He was determined to make that post, which caused you to reply.  Determinism isn't about static world with no change. It's  just a simple, nearly tautological statement that everything that happens, happens because it HAD to happen - there was no other possibility. The fact that one could imagine that something else could have happened does not proof anything - anymore than the fact that you can imagine dragons proves the existence of dragons. It's bit like "the law of identity" or "the law of non-contradiction" - it tells you almost nothing, but it is undeniable.

  • 09-06-2008 4:45 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Well, those are very interesting theories, thanks for sharing them. Free will still exists, so I guess you could say that my opinion remains unswayed, which means that your theory is incorrect. I have chosen to not change my opinion. Thanks!Big Smile

    "As a vivid, living value, the nation-state as an object of worship and a source of practical and moral solutions is as dead as King Tutankhamun."-- S. Molyneux

  • 09-06-2008 8:53 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind... 


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  • 09-06-2008 9:38 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    *sigh* Why can't we all just be pre-determined to get along...?

     

    8D

  • 09-06-2008 9:43 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Haha! The dude's handle is "I don't like you"!

    As if he had a choice whether to like you, or not, according to his doctrine....

    ...and it's pretty amusing how determinists like to pretend that causal explanations somehow automatically rule out choice as a functional possibility, and then try to repair responsibility by conflating it with causal explanation... 

    What a merry-go-round.

     

  • 09-06-2008 10:12 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    GregG:
    ...and it's pretty amusing how determinists like to pretend that causal explanations somehow automatically rule out choice as a functional possibility, and then try to repair responsibility by conflating it with causal explanation...

    But if it's completely causal then what's indeterministic about it? Is it "partially deterministic" with some "random" factor also?

  • 09-06-2008 12:41 PM In reply to

    • idontlikeyou
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 09-06-2008
    • Confederate States of America
    • Posts 15

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Stefan Molyneux:

    I want you to change your mind to the position that you cannot change your mind...

    Determinism does not state or imply that one cannot change their mind.  As a matter of fact determinism says quite the opposite.  It says that our minds change to internal and external stimuli.  Your reply does not help your image nor does it address any arguments put forth by me or any determinists I am familiar with.

     

    Also to your "pre-determined" remakr:

    Determinism is not the same as destiny.  My actions tommorow are not pre-determined today, they are determined by a host of factors some of which arebased one past expereince and other based on stimuli that I will come in contact with between now and when I act tommorow.  Pre-determinism, or fate/destiny, is not the same as determinism.

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  • 09-06-2008 12:54 PM In reply to

    • idontlikeyou
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 09-06-2008
    • Confederate States of America
    • Posts 15

    Re: Will and Determinism

    GregG:

    Haha! The dude's handle is "I don't like you"!

    As if he had a choice whether to like you, or not, according to his doctrine....

    ...and it's pretty amusing how determinists like to pretend that causal explanations somehow automatically rule out choice as a functional possibility, and then try to repair responsibility by conflating it with causal explanation... 

    What a merry-go-round.

     

     

    I never said I had a free choice, it simply states a condition.  Just like saying I am white does not imply a choice.

     

    What is choice?  I have choices, as in options.  i make choices, as in decisions.  But do I have choice, as in free will?

     

    When a printer puts out a document in green instead of black ink do we say, oh well?  No, we fix the printer or get a new one.  When an animal bites the leg of a person do we just say, oh well?  No, we try to rehablitate it or put it down.  When a man has a phobia do we say, oh well?  No, we encourage him (act as a causal agent) to seek help.  When a person kills nother person does it matter whether hehad metaphysical free will?  Of course not.  How can we hold someone responsible for his actions though?  Easily, he is the direct causal agent and represents a threat to others or violation of the rules so he must be punished.  Our modern penal system is based on rehabilitation and deterent, principles that fit comfortably into determinism.

    Moral and legal responsibility do not rest solely on free-will.  However the idea of uncaused and unconditional will that motivates human action is not only fantastical but also keeps us from understanding behavior and crime prevention.  After all, a person is a part of the web of casue and effect, so why should the cause of crime and the effect of punishment seem so alien?  To claim that we can't hold someone reponsible because he lacks free will assumes that free will exists as an actual standard by which to contrast.

    Further Reading:

    http://www.naturalism.org/strawson_interview.htm

    http://www.naturalism.org/freewill3.htm

    http://www.naturalism.org/fatalism.htm

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  • 09-06-2008 1:07 PM In reply to

    • idontlikeyou
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 09-06-2008
    • Confederate States of America
    • Posts 15

    Re: Will and Determinism

    bockman:

    Well, those are very interesting theories, thanks for sharing them. Free will still exists, so I guess you could say that my opinion remains unswayed, which means that your theory is incorrect. I have chosen to not change my opinion. Thanks!Big Smile

     

    Please don't assert, give arguments.  Assertions are fine if we were conducting a poll but serve little other purpose.  Also your position being unswayed is not disproof of determinism because an argument for a position is not the only causal factor involved in determining your state of mind.

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  • 09-06-2008 2:10 PM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Ah, but his response is pre-determined, as you say, he has no choice in his posts, so asking him to 'do better' denies your own argument.

    And so it is the same contradiction every time...Sad


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  • 09-06-2008 2:23 PM In reply to

    • a14
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-18-2008
    • Nevada
    • Posts 42

    Re: Will and Determinism

    idontlikeyou:
    ...fate/destiny, is not the same as determinism.
    I think this is one of those critical points that keeps most threads about free will unresolved. Although I fall on the determinist side, I find both sides misrepresent the other and I wonder if we can find a happy medium : >
    "...one day, I say, today, I live as a lion."
  • 09-06-2008 4:02 PM In reply to

    • te majev
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-24-2008
    • Fairfax, VA
    • Posts 48

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Stefan Molyneux:

    Ah, but his response is pre-determined, as you say, he has no choice in his posts, so asking him to 'do better' denies your own argument.

    And so it is the same contradiction every time...Sad

     

    Asking him to do better does not deny his own argument. I believe that holding him morally (or otherwise) responsible and believing in determinism would be self contradictory, but attempting to influence his belief and action is not. As has been said before, determinism does not imply that stimuli do not influence our actions and the actions of others.

     

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