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  • 07-18-2008 6:50 AM

    • Vichy
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-01-2008
    • Oregon
    • Posts 175

    Will and Determinism

    Okay, I know Stef is sick to death of these threads.  He's probably not the only one.  I rarely engage in them myself.  But I think I may have something to add.  This idea is 'original' to me, which is to say I have added a part which I have not heard before.  I make some attempts at basically answering Free Will objections to Determinism with a strictly Deterministic framework.  It is novel and I hope you will, for that reason alone, read it.  All of it - you might think you've heard the same thing but find I've got my little twist.  And if I'm wrong, feel free to politely and constructively refute me.  Likewise, if you've read something relevant to it you should send me a link or something.  Please not a lot of back-and-forth on the actual Free Will-Determinism argument.  But certainly all comments on the argument and how well you think it addresses or fails to address Determinism and Free Will.

    I'm poor, lazy, young, almost totally self-taught, hardly attended school and intentionally ignored the rest.  If you care, I'm a cultural 'American' from the Korean genetic population.  I'm not a professionally trained logician, but Socrates was a wiseass curmugeon so I don't think that will too adversly affect the argument amongst this lot.  But if I make some mis-statements or odd uses of word, try to look at it contextually and assume I probably believe in the laws of logic as most Austrian economists and (a favourite amongst the Stirnerite community) George H. Smith.  I am familiar with some of the more sophisticated (and sophistic) logical from Wittgenstein, Russell, Rand, Aristotle and a smattering of random articles from practically random time frames.  This is mainly mentioned to put you in my intellectual mileu.  It may be justified or it may be a conceit, but I believe that most fundamental logic can be worked out by sufficiently clear and precise speech.  For this reason I will eschew formal logic (which I believe is largely pointless symbolry) as well as exactitude in terms such as differentiation of the meaning and reference of a word.  If you call me on these articles it will really annoy me.  I'm open to the idea, but it's not substantive to the argument.  Certainly don't make a reply refuting me in this manner, send me a message if you think it's really informative.  I imagine that you are probably tired enough of reading this to be in agreement or apathetic to the point, so onward.

    Basic Argument

    1. Logic.  Just the basic laws of logic, validity of deduction and induction to distinguish truth from error, reality with objective facts which can (in principle) be comprehended by all who understand logic.*
    2. All objects behave according to their properties.  This very behaviour is what makes it an object and they its properties.  That this regularity of behavour within (and thus between) objects, altogether causation.  Non controversial so far, right?  But here's where the controversy comes up (at least in my argument).  Causation is...causation.  Everything happens according to - causation.  Because I believe this to be directly implied by the basic law/laws of logic I do not see much room for doubt or wiggle.  I also believe Causation can be indepedently deduced or proven by other deductive arguments.  Causation, in any case, will be posited and I doubt there will be much objection to it.
    3. If everything behaves according to its properties everything is it's properties and its existence in said behaviour.  This, I think, is Determinism in a veral literal sense.  No thing could ever act in a way which contradicted its properties, and no properties could contradict one another.  Expand this to interaction between objects and one must also conclude this: all things which exist can only be said to exist because they can (in principle) be perceived, that they manifest their properties in some way and that this manifestation is the very existence of any 'thing'.  Thus reality is objective (though not obvious).  Yet if all things are the fact of their properties consistency then everything happened because of what it is.  Everything which ever developed through the actions of these things is ultimately the product of the different manifest properties in relation to one another.  It is my belief that it is perfectly possible to reconcile all uncertainty and observational limitations within science with a strict Determinism in metaphysics.  Taking quantum physics as an example, the fact that we can not observe the reason light and electrons behave as they do might mean we can only speak of their behaviour in probabalistic terms, but it simply does not make rational sense to say that this is 'random', 'indeterminite' or the like.  But while must be true that the properties themselves must be deterministic and causational, that they are comprehensible in principle does not mean anyone ever could actually observe them.  There may be things that can never be known, and the future seems a strong candidate first of all, but that simply indicates ignorance.  This argument is secondary, and is subsumed within the Identity-Causation-Determinism theory, but is the basis of one of the claims I am going to make.
    4. One point, which Stefan Molyneux argues, has to deal with determinists unwilling to say that no one is morally responsible.  I do not doubt his observation, I have encountered it myself.  But, as those who bother to read my bombastry will know, I have absolutely no problem with this.  I don't believe in moral responsibility at all because I don't believe in morals.  I am more charitable with the issue of deterministic responsibility than Stefan, but I will grant him that it is inconsistent.  Nonetheless this is merely contradiction in a person's ideas, and not a refutation of either.  Obviously one must be wrong but, especially as I view this as a fundamental fact of logical reality, I would very easily resolve it by abandoning ethical responsibility rather than reason altogether.  I wish people could understand how goofy I find ethical arguments.  In any case there is no possibility than anyone can level this particular contradiction, if it be one, and Mr. Molyneux can now say that he has talked to someone who will say that people are not morally responsible.

    Looked at from a perspective of necessary ideas of truth-falsity and identity-property, causal determinism seems to be definitionally true.  It's implied in our action, our ideas, it's implied in reality and knowledge.  Nobody can make a meaningful statement with assumptions of cause, effect and identity.  A thing is the case or it is not the case, it is so by objective and real distinctions which (in principle) are comprehensible by logic.  I have heard many objections and apparent contradictions between experience, individuality and Determinism but very little in the way of counter-argument of this basic, seemingly incontestable, point of Determinism.  If anyone promoting Free Will and accepting the basic laws of logic can argue their way out of this specific point I'd like to read it, though preferably by message, since I don't want to restart the old debates.

    Determinism has suffered not from a lack of subtlety or rigor in defense of its basic premises, but from a paucity of conclusions.  Determinists have often declined to address problems raised by Free Will arguments, and even become frustrated with them, because the fundamental logic of it seemed incontestable.  While I hold the view that Determinists were justified in doing so, because causality and identity are certainly more fundamental than the impression of freedom.  It is far more likely that somone has a mistaken understanding of will than that causality has been abolished and reality with it.  But this neglect has left a paucity of deterministic attempts to explain perception, knowledge, choice, understanding and communication as they are actually experienced.  Generalizations about 'atoms' may be correct in the sense that these do compose physical beings but Walter Block wasn't attacking Straw Men when he said that we know of no particle that causes argumentation.

    My basic argument is this:

    Human beings do engage in in rational deliberation, they do make decisions and take actions.  This is a fact of my own observation.  But this is entirely consistent with the fact that I am composed of things which have definite properties which behave in definite ways.  My perception is the fact of my brain inside of an objective physical reality, where the laws of logic do and must apply.  This perception arises, not from 'chemistry' or 'molecules' either in the abstract or in specific, but rather from an emergent system of these things.  My existence-as-perspective derives from an organization of specific things in a specific place at a specific time.  As I can record information and comprehend objective principles of reality, this creates a perspective which is unique not only in its physical cohesion but also its temporal status.  This may seem like a minor point, but I think that to understand what it is to be an individual and conscious one must take not only the physical but temporal properties into account.  Time makes individuality because (with the appropriate system) a specificity of circumstance operates through time.  Presuming that system is a capacity to recognize logical relationships and record events causually, it would become a cascade not of particles - and especially not specific lumps - but of observations of reality around (and inside) that thing.  It is not 'omniscient', it's knowledge is specific and limited.  That is indeed what makes it conscious and individual at all.  If you throw in some motivations, for evolutionary reasons among others, you have a conscious actor with a specific awareness of space, time, causality and the ability to differentiate truth and falsehood.  It will rationally plan and act in an objective reality with certain ends in mind.  But the fact of its action is predicated upon its ignorance of the future.  In order to make choices, it must possess ignorance at least about the future of its own preferences.  Thanks to causality, though, there is no danger of this.  Its preferences can not be known until they are formed, for the formation of these preferences and ideas are precisely what the experience of individuality is.

    The fact that individuals act in certain ways categorically seperate from that of rocks is not because one is 'free' and the other is not, but because the human possesses motivation, perspective, memory and the capacity to recognize rational relationships.  Yet this capacity is precisely deterministic.  An organized rationality system's behaviour accords with all the laws of physics, but the system that makes it up is distinguished as 'conscious' only because it recognized rational relationships and holds both memory and preference.  A series of random impulses or nonsense certainly are not thought or awareness.  The altogether rational-memory-preference system, while certainly tenative, seems to explain certain facts very well.  We engage in both conscious and unconscious examination of reality, hold certain ideas about it and act on these ideas.  We are uncertain of our own future actions and thoughts.  We do not see our thoughts as electrons or gears, but experience them, well, cognitively.  Why?  Because that IS our thoughts, like cell functions or a car the materials that make up a thing determine it while being an objective system all their own.  The reason we don't see our 'thoughts' the way that a neurologist does is because we are a certain part of that system and we are aware of/are certain elements of the system while being ignorant of much of the machinery that makes it up.  Because we are capable of/are a rational perspective we have a certain logical incapacity to calculate our own future decisions.  The more general problems of equipment, limits of observation, limited information on the premises of physical law and initial conditions and the complicating factors like the fact that every object in the Universe affects every other object in the Universe put substantial problems in front of omniscience.  Non-omniscience is a prerequisite of individual existence, and yet consistent with a deterministic physical reality.  Just because the conclusions we came to, and actions we chose, could not have been any other way does not deny that we actually thought about it, had some feelings and arrived at a decision.  This purely mechanical, though high order, phenomena would explain calculation, valuation, storage and arbitration.  Indeed, many here probably except a physiological-material brain description.

    This is, I think, exactly the model we implicitly accept when we talk to other people.  We accept that the fact of perspective and reason is equal to a certain physical body without which such an individual could not 'exist'.  Yet we can not directly experience his perception any more than we can experience the future.  The very fact of his being an individual means that his perspective is distinct from yours (and anyone else's).  You can comprehend his ideas, you can understand how his brain works, show how he does math, what processes physiologically manifest his emotions and intellectual activities.  The difference between what you see and what he sees is in perspective, and the indivdual's perspective is precisely that the existential uniqueness of a particular arrangements precludes anyone else 'observing' it, it includes being a part of it.  The reason we can understand other individuals as rational beings is because we are; but this very understanding both precludes future-knowledge of our own knowledge and the ability to identify our objective perspective-feeling-will from a unique perspective to observation of the mechanisms through certain other methods.

    * Am I the only one who thinks the fact that this is necessary half the time is weird?  It's more Twilight Zone than 1984.  I keep imagining this 30s WASP male in a dark suit talking to a gas station attendent who says "it's all relative, nobody really knows anything", waking up in his hotel room and not being able to remember what relation numbers bear to eachother and trying to figure it out for hours, finally he ends up pacing back and forth and screams, "I can't remember the laws of logic!"  At that point he wakes up from a fever and says to his wife, "I had a strange dream."  She asks him what it was and he says, "Nevermind.  It doesn't make any sense."
    Hey, maybe I shouldn't be writing for the television, but logicians and economists need their jokes, too.

    Also someone should give me a good but brief link/s on the basics of grammar and composition.  I want to eleminate issues that might cause comprehension error.  I don't care about the minor stuff, as long as everyone seems to be getting it.  But, heck, I wouldn't mind being awesome in general.  Forward to Awesome, Reality is the Victory.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Fritz

  • 07-18-2008 3:45 PM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    I don't think free will makes any sense. It just sounds like a tool to get people to feel bad for unchosen conditions.  When talking about ethics I just apply the level responsibility I expect of myself universally. It makes sense to look at my problems in the deterministic sense, but it does not make sense to solve them from a deterministic view point. In fact, we don't look at the future from a deterministic view point ever, because we can not determine the future. Determinism only makes sense when looking backwards, which makes me wonder why we even call it determinism. You said a couple of things that went over my head, mainly the second paragraph after the point by point argument. I think what I just said agrees with you.

  • 07-18-2008 4:39 PM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    I may have misunderstood of course, but I don't think that saying "everything behaves according to its properties" denies or invalidates free will, since "free will" may just be one of the "properties" of human beings.

    And, of course, things in aggregation certainly do behave counter to their individual properties. No man can harmonize with himself unaided, but a choir can. No atom possesses life or thought, yet people possess both.

    I have a series on free will that might be of interest, it's on the 'Videos' page... Smile


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  • 07-19-2008 8:00 PM In reply to

    • Vichy
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-01-2008
    • Oregon
    • Posts 175

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Stefan Molyneux:

    I may have misunderstood of course, but I don't think that saying "everything behaves according to its properties" denies or invalidates free will, since "free will" may just be one of the "properties" of human beings.

    And, of course, things in aggregation certainly do behave counter to their individual properties. No man can harmonize with himself unaided, but a choir can. No atom possesses life or thought, yet people possess both.

    I have a series on free will that might be of interest, it's on the 'Videos' page... Smile

    But 'freedom' of a property is precisely a non-property.  A thing which possesses a property which could behave differently in identical situations does not really possess a property at all.  What we have is not 'free' will, but will as a fact (imperative and conscious rationality).  Our choices are determined by what preferences we (factually) have and the ways in which our brains are able to (deterministically) develop ideas about the world.  Within this system only one outcome will result, but obviously we do not know this outcome until we have arrived at it - the future is uncertain.  The reason we can imagine behaving differently in a given situation is because that imaginary situation is not the actual situation; circumstances are different as Mises pointed out concerning the reason that experimentation is invalid within economic science.

    It neither contradicts experience nor ideas like economics to say that all reality is deterministic.  The fact of will - rational analysis and goal-orientation within an objective reality - as well as uncertainty are compatible both with what I observe within myself and what we can deduce philosophically about our own thoughts and actions.

    It may be said that we may thus treat it as though we 'effectively' had free will, and while loosely this is fine, it is literally not true - it is not even possible to imagine that we could have had certain ideas and abilities in a specific situation yet we would have behaved otherwise.  What we have is will and a body which is directed by this process (At least to some extent).

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Fritz

  • 07-19-2008 8:04 PM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    So if I understand your argument correctly, I am not responsible for how I respond to this post, you are not responsible for what you type and it is impossible for either of us to "change" our minds, is that right?


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  • 07-19-2008 11:57 PM In reply to

    • Vichy
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-01-2008
    • Oregon
    • Posts 175

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Stefan Molyneux:

    So if I understand your argument correctly, I am not responsible for how I respond to this post, you are not responsible for what you type and it is impossible for either of us to "change" our minds, is that right?

    No, I am saying that "I" am precisely some sort of locus of this capacity within the brain (or an outcome, if you will).  I am causally responsible for what I type and think - in that it is this perspective and the different analytic and imperative inputs which does factually determine the outcome of what views I will hold and which actions I will take.  What 'I' am is precisely this at a particular moment in space/time.  We can change our minds if your reason and desires lead you to make an argument which my reasons and desires recognizes and accepts.  It is kind of nonsensical to differentiate between an experience of cognition from my viewpoint from the general phenomena which make it up.  As I tried to explain earlier, reason and decision making do occur, and these can be related to objective reality.  But given all that I know right now, and what I desire right now, and the circumstances of all other phenomena in the Universe right now - how could I not do what I have just done?  All I have done is followed an imperative of satisfaction to the best of my ability.  This is precisely what a goal-oriented rational calculator would do, is precisely what I experience and in no way denies the existence of such calculation.  The 'me' that is responsible is the thing that calculates, and no it could not have ended up any differently, but it could behave differently under different circumstances.

     

     

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Fritz

  • 07-20-2008 6:49 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    "The 'me' that is responsible is the thing that calculates, and no it could not have ended up any differently, but it could behave differently under different circumstances."

    So if I understand you correctly, you believe or act as if you have a choice, but it is an illusion, because circumstances dictate your actions?


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  • 07-22-2008 4:52 PM In reply to

    • Vichy
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-01-2008
    • Oregon
    • Posts 175

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Stefan Molyneux:

    "The 'me' that is responsible is the thing that calculates, and no it could not have ended up any differently, but it could behave differently under different circumstances."

    So if I understand you correctly, you believe or act as if you have a choice, but it is an illusion, because circumstances dictate your actions?


    I am saying that choice, as it occurs and is experienced, is a rational and goal oriented but deterministic action.  What I feel, what choice is precisely is a certain perspective upon a mechanical process.  There is no differentiation between 'me' and the fact of 'me'.  There is no illusion of my choice because I am the manifestation of my ideas and choice.  It seems to me you're implying a 'you' which is different from this mechanism of action and reaction.  But this very complicated system is itself me, that is what materialism is after all.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Fritz

  • 07-22-2008 5:30 PM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Just to say that I thought your initial post, concerning some objections to determinism, was really quite superb. I look forward to reading your continued dialogue with Stef!

  • 07-22-2008 9:46 PM In reply to

    • Vichy
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-01-2008
    • Oregon
    • Posts 175

    Re: Will and Determinism

    fingolfin:

    Just to say that I thought your initial post, concerning some objections to determinism, was really quite superb. I look forward to reading your continued dialogue with Stef!

    Maybe I should smite the gates of Angband and challenge Melkor the Morgoth to single combat, eh?

     

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Fritz

  • 07-22-2008 10:39 PM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    Vichy:

    Stefan Molyneux:

    "The 'me' that is responsible is the thing that calculates, and no it could not have ended up any differently, but it could behave differently under different circumstances."

    So if I understand you correctly, you believe or act as if you have a choice, but it is an illusion, because circumstances dictate your actions?


    I am saying that choice, as it occurs and is experienced, is a rational and goal oriented but deterministic action.  What I feel, what choice is precisely is a certain perspective upon a mechanical process.  There is no differentiation between 'me' and the fact of 'me'.  There is no illusion of my choice because I am the manifestation of my ideas and choice.  It seems to me you're implying a 'you' which is different from this mechanism of action and reaction.  But this very complicated system is itself me, that is what materialism is after all.

    So "choice" is not real, but an illusion? It is, as you say "deterministic"? Please just tell me "yes" or "no"...Smile


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  • 07-23-2008 4:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    If the law of causality is universal, everything is deterministic. Probabilities and randomness are useful concepts when we lack sufficient information, but ultimately nothing is random. And randomness wouldn't even solve the "free will" problem. In my opinion the most hilarious, absurd and irrational argument against determinism is this: "if you argue with people, you show that you don't really believe in determinism, since if everything was deterministic changing people's opinions would be impossible!" Causality (=determinism) is completely compatible with changing opinions by argumentation, but on the other hand randomness (=indeterminism) would make argumentation pointless. My computer works deterministically; this doesn't mean that I cannot give orders to it and affect its operation. Actually, only determinism makes it possible in the first place!

    In the same way I'm slightly reluctant to say "There is no god" since I'm not exactly sure what god is, I'm also slightly reluctant to say that free will does not exist. Compatibilism seems somewhat reasonable position to me. But if "free will" is by definition something indeterministic, I reject it. I don't believe in random will. If you think the debate as "determinism vs. indeterminism" instead of "determinism vs. free will" the superiority of determinism seems rahter obvious.

    Stef, if I remember right, you rejected determinism, randomness (=indeterminism) AND compatibilism in you free will videos. What the hell is left after that? This magical, mysterious free will, which nobody wants to define? And how do you define choice?

  • 07-23-2008 8:54 AM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    I certainly defined free will, in great detail.


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  • 07-23-2008 8:11 PM In reply to

    • Vichy
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-01-2008
    • Oregon
    • Posts 175

    Re: Will and Determinism

    So "choice" is not real, but an illusion? It is, as you say "deterministic"? Please just tell me "yes" or "no"...

    The problem here is that what you are calling 'choice' seems to be different than the physical fact of considering and coming to a conclusion, which it isn't.  It may seem different to you, but at least to me making a choice and coming to a rational conclusion decided by limited knowledge and certain desires are the same thing.  It is also precisely what I experience.  The problem to me is that the definition you seem to be wanting to use for 'choice' literally makes no sense.  There is nothing 'illusory' about choice, nor is there anything 'random' and certainly nothing which controls it beyond what I know and what I decide based upon that.  Choice is the fact of an act of deliberation, to define it any other way reduces it to meaninglessness as far as I can see.  Therefor I can't say 'yes' or 'no' because it seems from my perspective to be a non sequitur question.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Fritz

  • 07-23-2008 9:50 PM In reply to

    Re: Will and Determinism

    OK.


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