Freedomain Radio

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I think that Batman is a statist. His solution to problems is always violence.

The plot in both the first and now this second movie is also way unrealistic. They both sound like a statist excuse for violence.

I agree, Batman's Gotham's bitch. 

What can you expect, the film's based on a Frank Miller comic book. He's known to polarize Good and Evil in a totally twisted and unfair way, justifying his heroes' violence by showing their enemies as freaky and disgusting petty fuckers, just like the Joker. Totally a neo-con thing, no wonder there are so many movies based on Miller's shit these days.

 Spratzaman

"At first glance, you might think that the Joker was beyond the system, but was he really? It was his parents' fault that he grew up sick. And it's the government's fault that people manipulate each other, and parents manipulate their kids. How can the Joker be beyond the system, when he's in fact its bastard child. It produces terrorists like him, and they only feed its power. Because without criminals, there'd be no Po-Po. The Joker's horrible actions justify the Government's use of violence, which created him in the first place. The Joker is just a sado-masochistic patient. He creates danger for himself, because that's the only state in which he feels secure."

You're projecting your valid views regarding parenting and the state unto the character of the Joker, which is not necessary to prove any points.

"Comparing Ledger's character to Kakihara from Ichi The Killer, we can see a lot of similarities. Batman is The Joker's greatest threat, just like Ichi is to Kakihara. Nothing feels better than confronting that danger. Kakihara is a much more realistic character, though, since they don't show him as an all-powerful figure. "

Comparing two unrealistic fantasy movies, like Batman and Ichi, to figure out which one is more psychologically and morally correct is a waste of time.

" So basically, people probably relate to the Joker because they admire his skills of manipulation and "assertiveness", because they grew up thinking these things are good."

I don't think many people who saw the movie adrmired the Joker. You're really reaching here.

One more thing, why do you have a catholic terrorist as your avatar?

I guess I didn't really prove a thing lol. Why so fail, right?

Carlos Morales:

I don't think many people who saw the movie adrmired the Joker. You're really reaching here.

Yeah, I was only reaching to the people who did admire him.

Carlos Morales:

One more thing, why do you have a catholic terrorist as your avatar?

the face is funny. it makes me laugh.

Wonderbread166:

I thought that the lesson of the ferry scene was more just that people are not like the Joker in that they do have a conscience that prevents them from blowing up the other boat.  You could use it to argue for anarchy but I don't think that was the intention.  But the feeling you get from this movie is really FEAR.  You come out of it thinking, wow, I don't want to be killed by a sociopath, let's give the police and government more power so we can be safe from these people.  The Joker is a terrorist in this movie, not just a villain, so you can see how it ties in with a post-9/11 world.  In the realm of the movie, anarchy= chaos, mass murder, pencils shoved in your eye, etc.  Honestly I think a readiness for anarchy is the last thing on people's minds after seeing The Dark Knight.

During the movie, I turned over to the person next to me and said "If this movie was made 7 years ago, they wouldn't call the Joker a "terrorist". If you didn't understand what I meant, I was referring to 9/11 and the molding of the word terrorist to modern American culture.

Hey Guys

Sorry for dragging up an old thread, but I've had some thoughts on this film.

I've been thinking more about this and it seems more and more obvious that Batman is an extension of the state.
He works with the police.
Uses violence.
Invades privacy (sonar devices).
Etc...

Although his actions have some immedient effect of creating "peace", it ends up creating more trouble.
This is summed up nicely at the end of the first movie when Gordon talks about escalation.
Batman's using doing his whole cape routine in the first movie forced the 'bad guys' to get the joker in the second film.
What I would like to see is the Riddler (who is supposedly a hacker) use batmans sonar device to cause trouble in the third film, continuing a sort of idea about escalation.

Violence causes violence causes violence....
I guess then there is the trouble of coming to any sort of 'happy ending'.

I would recommend watching 'Batman Unmasked - The Psychology Of The Dark Knight' - it aired on the History Channel around the time of the release, I'm sure if you are internet savvy you will find it.

Batman is not 'the state' he is vigilance and order outside their realm.

I've watched the Dark Knight twice now.   Once in the theater, once on the web(legally!).  

Both experiences were decidedly surreal.  Both times I watched it, I felt amazing.  Some movies have a way of picking you up, shaking you, and tossing you back into your seat.  You get something that isn't quite adrenaline, but close.  Its bliss.  Bliss from watching a superbly crafted piece of entertainment.   

However, this bliss did not last for me.  Shortly after I finished watching it my subconscious started talking.  It pointed out all the little logical errors, plot holes, and other inconsistencies.*  

And then I read through this thread here on FDR.  And I thought some more...and then a question popped into my head...

If most of us can agree that violence is not only an inefficient way to solve social problems, but an immoral one....why do so many people on FDR love the movie?  

When I think of TDK, one word comes to mind: propaganda.  

Anybody else have any thoughts about this?

*[To name one:

 The truck flip.  It is physically impossible to flip a semi-truck that way.  I've driven one, so I know how much they weigh and how they handle.  I think they actually used nitrogen cannons to achieve the effect, but I could be wrong.  

In addition to that, everybody in that truck was dead.  D-E-D, DEAD! 

A broken neck is impossible not to have after a crash like that. ]

It is also impossible when the joker fell at the end and Batman shot a rope down and pulled him up, that he dangles the joker in front of him. The rope was now suddely over a higher bar so they were head to head, but you can't shoot a rope up over a bar after which it sudden goes down towards the falling guy. Ofcourse a lot of other things are impossible in a movie like that, but I don't mind so much as long as it obvious. In the same way you don't mind a space ship going to warp 8 in a scifi movie, but if someone turns a corner and has a different shirt, it is annoying.

I saw and enjoyed the movie for its grittiness, noir and action.  I don't think the film  does any favors to FDR's conversation about freedom, honesty and integrity.  But the opening scene is completely brilliant from a moral anarchist's perspective.

You have Joker and his gang invade this completely civilized and ordinary bank to steal it's money.  They're nothin but thugs shaking up our civilized and structured world, right?  Then we see the bank manager dude pull out a shotgun, we see the safe eletrocute the lockpicker, we see the alarm dials a private number and not the police.  We realize that the assumed structure and order of this organization is actually a complete lie.  The Joker is stealing from invisible thugs, organized crime undoubtedly more damaging than any single man could ever be.  As we get to know the city better, the more we see how violence and dishonesty pervades every element, even the police. The Joker, for all the evil that he does, also exposes all the evil around him more clearly, the same way that our modern experiences with terrorism do.

Part of the reason that the Joker is so compelling to people is that he's almost empathetic.  For a long time, I had the opinion that everyone was full of shit, no one was consistent, and no one wanted to be.  The Joker speaks to that cynical part of all of us (even people not in this conversation) that knows society and ourselves are fucked up in this almost unspeakable, primordial way.  To see someone who is genuine, even if he is genuinely insane and evil (this is the Joker in spades, I doubt seriously that anyone like this actually exists), is somewhat refreshing.

The way that the movie tries to portray Batman as a hero is disturbing.  It reeks of the same sort of "lesser of two evils" thinking that causes people to defend the state and justify voting.

I didn't think the boat test was a moral problem at all really.  As soon as the threat was "if you don't kill, then you will die", it became a state of nature scenario so morals don't really apply anymore if I understand it correctly.  If joker had wired them to blow up with the clock instead of remote (which he SHOULD have done if he were being an intelligent terrorist), both boats should have blown up.  So the people were really all committing suicide. 

If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you "if you don't kill this random person" you will die, you do what you need to survive.