Freedomain Radio

I am not sure which podcast the "Against me" argument is from.  But I am sure there is a specific podcast dedicated to it.  Basically it goes like this:

Someone tells you they support the war.  You ask if it is okay if you don't support the war.  They usually agree that you are able to hold a contrary opinion.  Ask if they would then support the police hauling you to jail for refusing to pay to support the war. Then simplify the equation for them.  "So you are saying that you would support the use of violence against me if I don't agree with and refuse to pay for the war."  Help them understand exactly what they are advocating, and then if they persist, never speak to this person again.

 

Crystal:

 

I'm sorry. Maybe it's in a podcast I haven't heard yet. What is the "against me" argument? Could you explain that for me please?

Crystal

Heavy sympathies for your 'round the fire situation a while back I had a similar situation a couple months ago at a backyard fire, though I skipped out a little sooner than it sounds like you did because I saw it coming. It's hard to see people like that as 'decent' again afterward, and I know that hurts.

Here's the 'Against Me' video:

It's also available as podcast 927 here.

The argument is simple, but sort of drops a bomb on any pretense of politeness on the part of those who would use the force of government to accomplish their goals.

 Oh yes... I have heard that argument, but never with the "against me" title. Got it! Thanks for pointing me in the direction of that video as well. I'll have to watch that soon! After a few podcasts today I think. I'm about two years behind and I'm going in order. I'm looking forward to being in the present, in many ways.

 

Joey:

I wonder why she turned out that way. What was her relationship to your parents like growing up compared to yours?

I'm the oldest, she's the youngest, and my brother in the middle. She was always a very observant little girl. She always watched us hurt ourselves doing something, and then not do whatever it was, even though we were having fun, whether it be on a slide or in a climbing tree... etc. She's always been quiet and soft-spoken... far from assertive. I was thinking about this yesterday actually... my mother decided to move to Oregon when her mom got in a really bad car accident. We were 16, 14, & 13, so we all had the choice to stay with my father, who was more physically abusive, especially when we were younger and quite authoritarian when it came to getting things done... or we could go with my mother to Oregon near my mom's family. My mom was a bit of a pushover as we got older, gave us more privacy and didn't dictate things to us as much. She was more cooperative and a bit like a friend, which was not at all the case with my father. My brother and I chose to go with my mom and my sister, oddly enough, stayed with my dad in California. I always thought it was because she felt sorry for him and/or she didn't want to leave the friends she had in school.  

Joey:

That's fantastic. Have you talked to her about the things we discuss here at FDR, the family specifically? I think I know the answer to that given the rest of your post, but I'd like a clarification on that.

I have talked with her about this a bit, but what's even more is that she has listened to quite a bit FDR herself, because my only computer is at my work, and she works with me. She likes most of it, mostly the political podcasts, but she seems to have the brakes on in certain areas. I certainly need to make some time with her, because I do have some questions. We have talked about my brother and his abuse of my nephew, as well as my frustration and pain relating to the way my dad abused us. She agrees with me, but doesn't have anything of her own to say, except bringing up times she knows he "messed up". I need to find out for sure, cause I'm just guessing here with the way she acts when talking about it, but I think she wants to just forget about it and "move on". I need to find out what exactly that means to her. How she thinks it's possible if you don't try to figure out why our father thought that was the way to deal with us. My father has told both my brother and my sister "I just want you to know that there are many things I wish I would have done differently." He has never said that to me. At the time I found out he said that to my siblings (pre-FDR) I was very upset that he never said it to me. Now it makes a bit more sense I think. I was the only one that stood up to him in any way. I ran away from home. It only lasted a day before he found me, but I was extremely defiant when he forced me to go back to his house. I was 15 years old, a few short months before we moved to Oregon.

Joey:

I'm an only child myself, but many of the regulars here who have defooed came from families with siblings. Many of them had to leave the siblings behind because those siblings just could not be reached.

I certainly know I can't sit back and hold my breath if that's what it comes to. We'll see, I guess. I know one thing, and that is I can't sit in limbo forever waiting for them, or anyone.

Thanks so much for the wonderful questions Joey. I found some things out for myself just answering them!

Much Appreciation,

Crystal

This is exactly the way I feel whenever I have an argument with one of my freinds on the subject.  It feels horrible.  I go all introverted for an hour or two after I have to give up, because they are not listening.

Crystal:

 I'm actually not totally sure why she was there with me. But she certainly wasn't thinking the same things I was in the dream.

My relationship with my sister is probably one of the most difficult for me to deal with in all this. She has never been abusive towards me. She is a very shy, scared person, in my view. She will never say anything to "hurt someone's feelings", and is very complacent, which for me is hard to respect, but I think it's because I have a lot to do in that area as well. I view her as a victim, but that could be a manipulation tactic. I'm not sure. She was the only one in my life that took the journey out of religion and the idea of god with me, so I have a lot of respect for her about that.

The other problem I have with her is she's engaged to her first boyfriend ever, and it's been around 7 years now they've been together. He's a cop. Well, now he's a CSI detective, but he's still the typical cop. Thinks he's doing the community a huge service, "catching the bad guys". It's disgusting. I never have to see him, which works for me, but it's hard because I don't understand what my sister is doing with him. I think she's way too smart for him, but obviously not. Potential is what I see in her, but she is free to do what she wants, and I'm gonna need to figure out what I'll do for me in regards to her and my relationship. If I need to let it go, I'm willing to, but it's the hardest for me, cause I've been closest to her out of anyone in my family.

Does anyone have a sibling and this kind of relationship with him or her? 

My relationship with my brother is somewhat similar. He works for a company that designs and constructs aircraft carriers for the navy. I made my disaproval clear to my parents a week ago, but they just said, "Oh, don't bother him about his job. It's just his job, etc." I wish my brother could see the connection between his job and the violence of the military. Part of me believes that he does see the connection but just doesn't care and is in it for the money. Whenever I talk to him on the phone I can feel my false self taking over and I don't know how much longer I can keep up the act. I will most likely break off the relationship around the same time I defoo from my parents. It makes me sad to see someone I looked up to when I was younger become a part of something so evil.

 

Best of thoughts to you Crystal. Reading about your experience I recognize the very first time I tried to explain to my classmates that santa claus was a hoax. That was a terrible and isolating event for me and nobody would explain to me that what I did was noble. I was treated like the person who blurts out how the book/movie/story ends in the most disapproving manner by the adults in my life. About your circle of friends, what a shame they weren't ready or willing to hear you out. Genocide is clearly abominable and
defending it is ugly. Here's to you for braving waters that are difficult to navigate when the mix of people around you are afraid to deal with what is really there. Best of luck on your journey.

 Thanks so much!

That sounds horrible, even more for a woman, as a guy you can always be the lonely cowboy far away from home, for a woman it feels pretty essential to have a supportive group around you. Not that it is in any consolation, but if it was last sunday, we might have been in the same situation at the same time, I can almost feel the connection in retrospect. Philosophical nonsense was flying all over the place and I felt increasingly alone. My usual eagerness to throw a javelin of truth into the tsunami of nonsense and evil, made way for fatalism. It felt it would be like convincing my cat to become a vegetarian.

To top it off I had flipped over in a canoo with my mobile phone and headset on me and ... well let me stop there.

 

 

pcrs:

That sounds horrible, even more for a woman, as a guy you can always be the lonely cowboy far away from home, for a woman it feels pretty essential to have a supportive group around you. Not that it is in any consolation, but if it was last sunday, we might have been in the same situation at the same time, I can almost feel the connection in retrospect. Philosophical nonsense was flying all over the place and I felt increasingly alone. My usual eagerness to throw a javelin of truth into the tsunami of nonsense and evil, made way for fatalism. It felt it would be like convincing my cat to become a vegetarian.

To top it off I had flipped over in a canoo with my mobile phone and headset on me and ... well let me stop there.

 

 

 

Wow... a canoe? What a trip that must have been... philosophy, fatalism and canoes!  

Although I'm glad I had the experience because it made way for some interesting thoughts on with whom I spend time, and why… I'm much more careful about my engagement in such topics. Once I've strengthen myself by not being around people I don’t feel comfortable to be honest around, I'll then be able to trust myself enough in knowing who I will engage in difficult topics with. When I feel that it's not in my best interest to speak openly about my passions, why put myself in that position with those people? Why put myself in that sort of company? It wasn't a debate at all.

Cheers!

   Crystal 

 PS - For some reason, when I first read the topic of this thread, I thought it said, "What was your conversation experience?", not "conversion experience". Hence posting the original post on this thread. Oopps!

So sorry if that was confusing to anyone.

Is someone saying here that it is easier for a man to strike out for freedom ? Men are stronger ?

Gerry:

Is someone saying here that it is easier for a man to strike out for freedom ? Men are stronger ?

 

 I thought he was commenting about the social nature of women due to the need to produce and protect children... in a tribal, biological sense. But indeed, that would be a great clarification. Would you mind clarifying that statement from your point of view pcrs?

Crystal:

Does anyone have a sibling and this kind of relationship with him or her? 

 

Your description reminds me of my younger sister. She's become increasingly vocal about her boyfriend's foibles but she's still just falling short of seeing the big picture. I try to just lead her to the logical conclusions of the problems she keeps encountering, but I think feelings of low self-esteem and self-worth are keeping her eyes and ears shut. It's tough as an older sibling to watch that, I'm sure you understand.

I feel like it's best I keep my opinion to myself but lately I've felt like sayin' it straight:

"Fuck'em! Life's too short! Kick'em to the curb!"

mcphilthy:

Crystal:

Does anyone have a sibling and this kind of relationship with him or her? 

 

Your description reminds me of my younger sister. She's become increasingly vocal about her boyfriend's foibles but she's still just falling short of seeing the big picture. I try to just lead her to the logical conclusions of the problems she keeps encountering, but I think feelings of low self-esteem and self-worth are keeping her eyes and ears shut. It's tough as an older sibling to watch that, I'm sure you understand.

I feel like it's best I keep my opinion to myself but lately I've felt like sayin' it straight:

"Fuck'em! Life's too short! Kick'em to the curb!"

 

 

 This sounds quite familiar for me, although you've been more vocal than I have it sounds like. My sister always seems so fragile to me. I know I need to speak up in order to have a deeper relationship with her, so it's gonna have to come out. I think I sense also how scared she is in looking at these things too. I know it should not stop me, but it has. She seems to keep her thoughts about her relationship with him to herself. I think it may be also that I don't have the relationship I had thought I had, or had hoped to have with her. I'm afraid to face that reality. Obviously, I don't feel open enough to speak with her about what I'm concerned about, so that tells me just about all I need to know about our relationship and what I need to do about it (I've not verbalized or typed that so far in this process. Wow). If we do have a solid connection, then she would be just as relieved as me if I brought up to her how I feel regarding her and got it out in the open. Very interesting... thanks for bringing that to my attention by telling me about your experience with this. That helps a lot.

I'm with you there too... life is too short.

Thanks for your input!

~Crystal

PS- Would you mind defining "big picture" for me? I'm not sure I know what you're referring to in that context.