Freedomain Radio

Hey all, I'm looking for some clairification on the whole false-self thing.

The false-self wants to claim accidental characteristics you have as virtue, right?  Like intelligence, looks, skills, etc.  This makes sense to me, and I agree with it.  My confusion comes in when I ask, "Well, then.  What the heck is virtuous?"

I thought rationality was a virtue, but can't that just be viewed as a genetic predisposition?  I know Stef talks about Ayn Rand claiming to be virtuous for her rationality in one of the premium Objectivism podcasts, and how her rationality was an accident of nature -- although a wonderful one at that.  I have also viewed having a good work ethic as a virtue.  I've certainly prided myself on working hard and doing the jobs I have well or to the best of my ability, but again, is that really something that I can claim as a virtue?

I'm just having a hard time rescuing virtue in my mind, and the whole thing feels kinda deterministicy to me, so I'm sure that I'm not understanding it properly.

Can anyone help me sort this out?  I'd really appreciate it.

A bit more information on the false-self would be of some real help to me too.  Anyone?

^^

Hey Rob, I found something useful on the false self.  I've heard people talk about this book before, and I found it in my library quite by accident yesterday.  Turns out in their catalog the book is listed under its german name although its been translated into English.  = P

Its "The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self" by Alice Miller. 

Its prettymuch all about the false self.

I've been thinking about this.  I think it's that although you're not virtuous simply because you were born with certain aptitudes, whether or not you are virtuous is determined by how you use those aptitudes.  I think Stef may have mentioned that in a podcast.  I forget which one, though.

Evan:

Hey Rob, I found something useful on the false self.  I've heard people talk about this book before, and I found it in my library quite by accident yesterday.  Turns out in their catalog the book is listed under its german name although its been translated into English.  = P

Its "The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self" by Alice Miller. 

Its prettymuch all about the false self.

Interesting.  I've heard Alice Miller mentioned quite a lot on these boards.  I'll have to check it out.  Thanks for the reference.

Hi there Robert.

Did you get your answer?

I'm combing through the podcasts and forum posts ATM trying to extract the philosophy myself. Understanding the concept of a true and false is one thing I've achieved and it now seems useful and uncontroversial.

Everything you need concerning this can be found in the following podcast...

FDR251: The Fight of the True Self
- Division between our rational and irrational character; Why the world is as it is; The great personal challange

Just the tip of the iceburg though!

Thanks a bunch!  I'll give it a listen through.

when a child is born it comes with various needs. Those early needs are biological, without those needs it would be impossible to develop a healthy (=true) sense of self. When those needs are met the child develops every time again a sense of self: i’m good. When those needs are not sufficiently met it causes pain and anxiety. The tragic then is this, that the child cannot identify the cause of the pain. The cause of the pain is neglect by the parents. When those needs are frequently or consequently unmet, the child becomes afraid of its own needs, because in its experience the needs lead to pain and anxiety. As i said, it cannot identify the true cause...... Consequence of all this is that it has to twist his needs in order to experience some satisfaction, appeasement. And that’s where the false self is born.

medea

medea:

when a child is born it comes with various needs. Those early needs are biological, without those needs it would be impossible to develop a healthy (=true) sense of self. When those needs are met the child develops every time again a sense of self: i’m good. When those needs are not sufficiently met it causes pain and anxiety. The tragic then is this, that the child cannot identify the cause of the pain. The cause of the pain is neglect by the parents. When those needs are frequently or consequently unmet, the child becomes afraid of its own needs, because in its experience the needs lead to pain and anxiety. As i said, it cannot identify the true cause...... Consequence of all this is that it has to twist his needs in order to experience some satisfaction, appeasement. And that’s where the false self is born.

 

medea

 Oh, this is good stuff. Please go on... I need you to explain it in more words. Self-appeasement??

I do not understand what you mean. What should i explain in more words. Self-appeasement? 

medea:

I do not understand what you mean. What should i explain in more words. Self-appeasement?

Yeah. This is the first time I have seen info on the origins of the false-self. It's interesting that you date it back to when we were babies. So babies already have a false-self.

I just read Alice Miller's "Drama..." about a week ago and she goes into the origins of false self in infancy in a lot of detail, so check that out if you're interested in that perspective. I'm not too well versed in psychology so I remain somewhat skeptical, though it does seem to make sense intuitively and certainly doesn't seem implausible.

oh, and another important thing, I think, is that parents often show displeasure when needs are expressed, from our time as infants(annoyed at the baby crying etc.) up to adulthood. This makes us defend ourselves by suppressing needs. I'm not sure exactly how all this fits together with true/false self but it's a piece of it I think.

I'm going to listen to the podcast on it someone posted, though I think I might have heard that one before.