Freedomain Radio

I have been thinking alot lately, about my relationship to the concept and practice of "leadership". I have always had something of a love-hate relationship with leadership, both as it was manifested in others, and as it manifested as a potential in me.

One thing that occurred to me: as a child - and the eldest of 5 sons - leadership was something imposed upon me as an "unchosen positive obligation" by my father, as a matter of ego (for him). I can remember as early as 6 or 7 years old, being held responsible for both myself and my next youngest brother's actions, often taking the fall for both of us. As I grew a little older, I did everything I could to redirect my father's attention away from me, and on to my brother Tom, by pretending to be slow or irresponsible - or just plain apathetic about aspirations and expectations he had for me, in the context of the family unit. My brother Tom positively relished the idea that he could supplant me, in my father's eyes, as the de-facto "eldest son", and by the time it really mattered, I was more than happy to surrender it - hell, I was practically demanding that he just take it already.

So, I'm pretty certain my attitude toward leadership is heavily grounded in my history. These days, I still feel a powerful sense of resentment at the idea of leadership itself, and find myself struggling hard to maintain respect for anyone in a position of leadership. What's more, the mere suggestion that I might be suited for such a role - even in a minor way - raises immediate ire and derision in my mind, and I've never quite been able to let go of that - and frankly, I don't think I want to.

Anyway, I thought it might be interesting to get Stef's perspective on these questions, as I worked through them in my own mind.

What do y'all think? Broad appeal, or too esoteric?

I think this would be a topic of great interest for a lot of people! It certainly is for me. I do have one question, though:

GregG:

 the mere suggestion that I might be suited for such a role - even in a minor way - raises immediate ire and derision in my mind, and I've never quite been able to let go of that - and frankly, I don't think I want to.

Why don't you want to? Why keep the ire and derision you feel at the thought of yourself in a leadership role? (Am not saying that retaining those feelings is sub-optimal - it may not be! Am just curious what benefit there is for you in the feelings.)

Well, I think it is probably self-indulgence.

It may sound strange, but I get a certain sort of pleasure out of sneering at leadership.

It's like flipping the bird at my father, from 20 years in the future ("screw you, old man!").

I like real leaders...someone with ability, initiative and charisma to inspire the cooperation of people; it's social entrapeneurship.  It's one of the best 'masculine' traits that exists.  The problem is that most 'leaders', like the 'leaders of the free world' are just petty little men with guns, conterfeiting and insulting real leadership.

I'm really interested in this, we could have a conference about it, Stef?

bajumpabumpa

GregG:

Well, I think it is probably self-indulgence.

It may sound strange, but I get a certain sort of pleasure out of sneering at leadership.

It's like flipping the bird at my father, from 20 years in the future ("screw you, old man!").

Could you tell me more about that pleasure? Am very interested to know about it - as it does make sense. I've felt it too.

I'm sorry if I'm being totally annoying... but am not sure I see the benefit to you now? It feels good in the moment to give a big "screw you, old man!" to your dad, no doubt... but it seems like the price of hanging onto these negative feelings is negative repurcussions in other areas of your life.

What I mean is... FDR is about leadership, right? And you, as one of the members of longest standing in the community, are in a role of leadership. So if your paradigm is to sneer at leadership, and to deride the idea that you could be a leader or that you're able to be, or that you are... would that not make you less effective in that role? I mean, as far as setting an example of living your values goes, or other forms of leadership.

 Greg,

I think this would be a great idea.  I've got some thoughts to share about this topic, though.

I read somewhere that one of the worst things to give someone is responsibility without power.  A supervisor who can't hire or fire is not going to be able to effectively control the employees that he is responsible for.  You say that you were coerced into a leadership role with your brothers, that you "took the fall" for your younger brother.  However, you can't be held responsible for the actions of something or someone you have no control over.  Short of being a violent, abusive ***, there was nothing you could do to control your brothers' behavior.  Thanks to your father, you were given the horrible task of staving off a negative by selling your soul or experiencing the soul-crushing apathy of a helpless situation.

It's no wonder that you resent the idea of being a leader.  Responding with ire and derision to coercive bullying is a completely appropriate response.  I think the problem lies in what leadership means to you, specifically just leadership.  I was thinking back to Stef's highly controversial podcast about the DRO "prison" model, and there is something there that I think applies.  In short, there is a big difference, almost like black and white, between the voluntary withdrawal of positives and the coercive infliction of negatives.  While there is usually no violent coercion in adult leadership, our experience of parenthood primes us to expect coercion, which in the non-coercive business world takes the form of bullying and the like.  I would suggest that a definition of just leadership would include:

1. A strict adherence to the truth, and the effort required to find out what the truth is in a given situation.

2. The appropriate manipulation of incentives based on the discovered truth.

While I would agree that charisma and personal skills are important parts of effective leadership, I think the items above cover the justice of leadership.  If people respond best to incentives, then it is the just leader who uses that as his "control", not the brute bullying of a madman.  In this way, a leader can be both virtuous and responsibly exert control.

(I just realized, there is one time when the withdrawal of a positive is evil.  That would be during early childhood, when the manipulation of affection to the child literally spells the difference between life and death.  It's as dangerous as holding a knife to their throat, even if parents don't see it that way.  Maybe that why it's hard to see in the future?)

These kinds of corrupt definitions and experiences of leadership have certainly colored my experiences of authority.  While I have had little opportunity to be a leader myself, I know that my responses to leaders take one of two forms:  slavish devotion if I identify them as just (still working on whether that is an objective or false-self identification), or slavish paralysis if they are not.  I think these can be traced back to the little boy who wanted so much to be the "good son" that his parents wanted him to be, who wanted Mommy to go to all the little shows and awards ceremonies, and then the boy who started to realize his parents were full of shit and begrudgingly accepted his fate.

A very good topic for thought...

KevinP

KevinP

I mentioned earlier in the chat room that I have been coming around for a few months (since Jan) to figure out why I was defood...I came across this post and became confused yet again. Everyone keeps wanting to blame parents for all of their faults and downfalls. Parents are not taught how to raise children in fact they learn by example and maybe by reading a couple of books. When you are confronted with a difficult situation you deal with it the best you can. As adults we understand that our parents were only doing what they thought was right and then we let it go. I think many older siblings are forced to take the leadership role by necessity in order to help out around the house. Is  this right? Possibly not but certainly not something we have to hold against our families of origin. Perhaps no one should have children as surely there is no one way to raise them, but then that would be the end of humanity. The way we were raised bad or good makes us the adults we are today.  We accept and move on. I don't understand your statement regarding parents being full of shit because they attended award ceremonies and school shows in a show of support. I always thought it sad that there were so many children that weren't even able to participate because their parents didn't give a damn...

Chuck,

I'd like to learn more so I'm curious about the posts here where 'Everyone keeps wanting to blame parents for all of their faults and downfalls.' Could I ask you to point out which posts those are? Thanks.

Dave

KevinP:

I think this would be a great idea.  I've got some thoughts to share about this topic, though.

I read somewhere that one of the worst things to give someone is responsibility without power.  A supervisor who can't hire or fire is not going to be able to effectively control the employees that he is responsible for.  You say that you were coerced into a leadership role with your brothers, that you "took the fall" for your younger brother.  However, you can't be held responsible for the actions of something or someone you have no control over.  Short of being a violent, abusive ***, there was nothing you could do to control your brothers' behavior.  Thanks to your father, you were given the horrible task of staving off a negative by selling your soul or experiencing the soul-crushing apathy of a helpless situation.

It's no wonder that you resent the idea of being a leader.  Responding with ire and derision to coercive bullying is a completely appropriate response.  I think the problem lies in what leadership means to you, specifically just leadership.  I was thinking back to Stef's highly controversial podcast about the DRO "prison" model, and there is something there that I think applies.  In short, there is a big difference, almost like black and white, between the voluntary withdrawal of positives and the coercive infliction of negatives.  While there is usually no violent coercion in adult leadership, our experience of parenthood primes us to expect coercion, which in the non-coercive business world takes the form of bullying and the like.  I would suggest that a definition of just leadership would include:

1. A strict adherence to the truth, and the effort required to find out what the truth is in a given situation.

2. The appropriate manipulation of incentives based on the discovered truth.

While I would agree that charisma and personal skills are important parts of effective leadership, I think the items above cover the justice of leadership.  If people respond best to incentives, then it is the just leader who uses that as his "control", not the brute bullying of a madman.  In this way, a leader can be both virtuous and responsibly exert control.

(I just realized, there is one time when the withdrawal of a positive is evil.  That would be during early childhood, when the manipulation of affection to the child literally spells the difference between life and death.  It's as dangerous as holding a knife to their throat, even if parents don't see it that way.  Maybe that why it's hard to see in the future?)

These kinds of corrupt definitions and experiences of leadership have certainly colored my experiences of authority.  While I have had little opportunity to be a leader myself, I know that my responses to leaders take one of two forms:  slavish devotion if I identify them as just (still working on whether that is an objective or false-self identification), or slavish paralysis if they are not.  I think these can be traced back to the little boy who wanted so much to be the "good son" that his parents wanted him to be, who wanted Mommy to go to all the little shows and awards ceremonies, and then the boy who started to realize his parents were full of shit and begrudgingly accepted his fate.

A very good topic for thought...

Excellent EXCELLENT points Kev!

Chuck, 

This seems like a great idea, regarding accepting and moving on. How exactly do you feel you've been successful with that? I ask this because I have found it impossible to be honest with myself and at the same time say that I can just "forgive and forget", or whatever you would like to call it. I can't control my emotions, but I can experience them and try to learn more about myself through paying attention to them. I think it would be great to be able to accomplish "moving on", but have not yet found a sound method of doing so. One of my problems with that is because I really don't see a point in "moving on" and healing that emotional scar tissue if you have a very real biological and psycological fear now hard-wired into you from a young age having to do with that person you experienced abuse from. It seems to have become a sort of instict on many levels to protect myself from those who have harmed me, whether emotionally or physically. I think that if a dog bit me, I could not continue to be around that dog without being afraid it will happen again. Have you found a successful way of addressing that problem? If so, how? I hope that was clear for you.

Thanks!

Crystal

 Bockman,

Perhaps it wasn't right to generalize by stating everyone, but it seemed to me that KevinP was inferring this. I have also noticed inferences to this in the chat room. When I get back to searching the forums I'll point out where I thought I found these references.

 Crystal,

I just don't hold grudges....never have and don't want to start now.

 Hmm, well I don't know how that answers my question. I was wondering how you don't feel some kind emotional response in an abusive situation. How do you protect yourself from people that may take advantage of your ability to not "hold grudges"? You don't feel that it's necessary? And if not, how did you get to that conclusion? 

I think I'm more confused about this than before.

Crystal