I just had this real long convo with this crazy person who believes that the sky is blue because God put an ocean above the sky...but check the convo out and tell me what you think. I was so close so many times b4 I just gave up trying to reason with him. Also, check out my vids on youtube. I am "TheAmericanAnarchist" there...so without further a due...here is the convo...sorry it is pretty long but important
DAREDEVIL BOADER: can a square-circle exist...is it even possible
inick1028i: nope right? lol
DAREDEVIL BOADER: what is ur reasoning but not even giving that a possibility...jw =]
DAREDEVIL BOADER: ok that sentence doesn't make sense haha
inick1028i: i think they contradict each other
DAREDEVIL BOADER: what I meant to say, what is ur reasoning that tells u that a square circle can never exist...yes they contradict eachother, but why does that disprove that thesis
inick1028i: im reasoning is either you are something or your not, theres no inbetween
DAREDEVIL BOADER: now what do u say to someone when you disprove the existence of the square-circle and they respond well the square-circle is not in this universe but an alternate universe. Also, the square-circle is not made up of detectable matter or energy
DAREDEVIL BOADER: would that be a valid response?
inick1028i: i guess i really wouldnt know what to say, except tehy cant prove the existence of that alternative universe
DAREDEVIL BOADER: that response would be totally wrong...it is like me handing in a math test with a equation that says 2+2=5...would I be justified going to my math teacher and saying that you can't mark me wrong because 2+2=5 in an alternate universe?
inick1028i: hahaha yeah totally
DAREDEVIL BOADER: using reason and logic is a great thing =]
DAREDEVIL BOADER: now if you accept logic and reason maybe you can help me with a problem I am having with the concept of God...how can God be both all-knowing and all-powerful? If God is all-knowing, he would be able to change anything...if he is all-powerfull he wouldn't know everything...Please help me through this if it is even possible brother
DAREDEVIL BOADER: he wouldn't***
inick1028i: honestly just from reading the bible more and more, it just seems agains God's nature to just say "well creation didn't go the way I expected" and just make a new one or something
DAREDEVIL BOADER: well if he knows how everything is going to turn out, how does he have any power to change it
inick1028i: im not totally sure if i get the question
inick1028i: like i would say that he knows how its going to turn out, and the way it is he had pre-destined it
DAREDEVIL BOADER: If I know something is going to happen 100%, how is it possible for me to change it
DAREDEVIL BOADER: If I know for a fact that someone will ring the doorbell at 11 am on Sunday...how can is it possible for me to change that
DAREDEVIL BOADER: be possible***
inick1028i: thats an interesting idea
inick1028i: but im not sure exactly where to go with it
inick1028i: like God knows what is going to happen, and he always has it unraveling the way he wants, what would he needed to change?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: you could have that idea if God knows how every second of every day is going to turn out...how is it possible after the process has started for him to be all-powerfull also...how would it be possible for him to change anything
inick1028i: in different instances in the bible God has changed his mind to holdback from something that could be potentially something bad because of prayer
DAREDEVIL BOADER: ok...then he has the power to change things...then he can't be all-knowing
inick1028i: what is wrong if he did change something?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: if he made the choice to change something in the middle of the process than he is not all-knowing because he wouldn't have forseen the change...if he did forsee the so called "change" than it was really a change and he wouldn't have the power to change it
DAREDEVIL BOADER: wasn't really***
inick1028i: i dont think we really know what the characteristics of God really mean in the human language
inick1028i: i think they are the best we could come up with
DAREDEVIL BOADER: explain
inick1028i: i just know how accurate our description of God really is, not that he is any less than what we think, but i dont think we know to the extent of what he is and is capable of
inick1028i: if he is God after all, couldn't he defy the rules of the concept of all-knowing and in that moment just like a gps recalculate or something
DAREDEVIL BOADER: no, that wouldn't be possible, thought that through 2
inick1028i: alot of these questions im sure most other christians have, cause it doesnt really seem like a completely-sufficient answered can be found out without God actually answering some of them
DAREDEVIL BOADER: you seem like a very intelligent person nick and I could see that you can't easily figure out logical problems...some philosophers say that the belief in a God is the fear of others...now I am expecting you to reject this but lets examine this...what would happen to you in your community if you rejected the concept of God...take me through the steps of how your life would change
DAREDEVIL BOADER: can easily***
DAREDEVIL BOADER: that you can easily***
inick1028i: i would probably become a less moral person to start
inick1028i: i would pursue money instead of being someone who would rather share the gospel
DAREDEVIL BOADER: keep going, I am going to take a leak...keep talk about what would happen 2 u...what would u family, friends, school, and church do
inick1028i: i wouldn't be able to hang out with my same friends. my family would be pretty shocked, and try their best to love me and at the same time snap me out of whatever i was thinking
inick1028i: and i probably wouldn't go back to church
inick1028i: my whole inner circle would change big time
inick1028i: it would definitely change my ethics too if i believed there wasn't a god
DAREDEVIL BOADER: why would ur ethics change
inick1028i: if there was no god, there wouldn't be consequences
DAREDEVIL BOADER: why do u say that
inick1028i: because once we die, would just wouldn't exist
DAREDEVIL BOADER: but that doesn't mean your actions wouldn't have consequences
inick1028i: well expecting that i wouldnt get blatantly breaking the law or being caught
inick1028i: i would pirate music instead of buying
DAREDEVIL BOADER: why
inick1028i: maybe ill being a little drastic
inick1028i: but if i knew i could do it and get away with it
inick1028i: and knew there was not a real standard to live to by
inick1028i: i might consider it
DAREDEVIL BOADER: there is objective morality that can be scientifically proven...have you ever heard of Univeral Prefable Behavior?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: Universal***
inick1028i: i haven't, what does it mean to be scientifically proven?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: ethical theories need to be consistent, universal, and non-contradictory just like physical theories
inick1028i: but it doesnt relate to an after-life
DAREDEVIL BOADER: exspand on that
inick1028i: technically i dont have to follow the UPB
DAREDEVIL BOADER: then you would naturally have a horrible life and would most likely die a broken person
inick1028i: haha
DAREDEVIL BOADER: lets say you and a group 200 people lived in a camp out in the woods...do u think you would have a decent life is you constitently lied, murdered, stole, etc? Who would do business with you and who would interact with you?
inick1028i: that is true, but as an atheist dont you worry how many other atheists might choose that kind of life?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: if they value their own life, own well being, and own existence they would follow natural law because it is in their self interest like eating food
DAREDEVIL BOADER: why don't you punch your friends in the face?
inick1028i: haha its not right, nor do i want to do that to them
DAREDEVIL BOADER: would that benifit you in anyway if u did that?
inick1028i: nope
DAREDEVIL BOADER: now would that be moral anyway if there was no God, government, or any other authority...or would does that rule need an authority to make it valid?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: or does that***
inick1028i: well where would the standard come from?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: reality...does an authority like a government need to say that water freezes at 0 degrees Celcius?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: or would that law exist within nature
inick1028i: it would just be an inevitable part of nature
DAREDEVIL BOADER: exactly, we don't need any higher authority to say that this is a law...it is just a natural law that operates within reality
inick1028i: but one is scientifically proven the other is different
DAREDEVIL BOADER: have you ever heard of natural law and natural rights theories?
inick1028i: nope lol
DAREDEVIL BOADER: it is away of scientifically determining what is universally moral...John Locke and Thomas Jefferson started that field of science
inick1028i: thats pretty interesting
DAREDEVIL BOADER: why do you think you are naturally evil? why do you think you would backstab and steal if you rejected the impossibility of God? Just curious...I know you are intelligent
DAREDEVIL BOADER: rejected God*****
inick1028i: because of the sin committed by adam and eve, its biblically proven to be the reason why we are born with a sinful nature
inick1028i: oh i forgot to answer question B
inick1028i: because honestly as a competitive person by nature, without morals i would be out to better myself at all costs
inick1028i: not just morals, without biblical principles in my life
DAREDEVIL BOADER: It is in the self-interest of man to cooperate with his fellow man, without peaceful social cooperation civilization would be impossible...Also, no one is saying that you should not help those in need...helping people brings joy to my life and gives me great pleasure
inick1028i: i believe that is because we were made to help out people in different respects so that no matter religion/world views there comes pleasure with helping people
DAREDEVIL BOADER: how are people naturally evil
inick1028i: i guess i cant say how they are, but according to the bible every since adam and eve, everyone has been born which the knowledge of good and evil
inick1028i: the evil part (often referred to as the flesh) just seems to cling to things that are not morally correct according ot the bible
DAREDEVIL BOADER: in the creation story, b4 adam and eve ate the apple...did they have any knowledge of the concepts of Good and Evil?
inick1028i: i don't believe they had the concept of evil
DAREDEVIL BOADER: so how are they responsible
inick1028i: the serpent tricked eve into thinking that God did not want them to eat the fruit of that one true because it would make them like him
DAREDEVIL BOADER: keep on going
DAREDEVIL BOADER: hold on...do u think that Whites need to pay reparations to African-Americans for slavery?
inick1028i: i think it was our ancestors responsibility at the time when it was abolished
DAREDEVIL BOADER: but why are we not responsible?
inick1028i: i see where this is going lol, but ill say it anyway, i wasn't technically responsible
DAREDEVIL BOADER: let me ask you something nick...I know you understand logic and reason, but why are you emotionally attached to the concept of God...what does this do to you emotionally?
inick1028i: well i truly believe that he exists, which really motivates me to want to carry out the goals that Jesus had asked of his disciples in the new testament which is to spread the good news to as many people as possible. it totally turns my world around from being about me, to being about God
DAREDEVIL BOADER: now let us replace the name of God with the Square-Circle...and lets say your family, friends, and everybody in your social network all believed that the Square-Circle exists and they would reject you if you rejected the existence of the Square-Circle...1...would you reject the existence of the S.C.....2...would you think that these people that would reject you to be healthy and loving of you?
inick1028i: i would reject it if i didnt believe it was true/if there was no evidence that i could see. i think some people would respond differently. some would understand some would be upset
DAREDEVIL BOADER: how is the contradictory nature of God which makes his existence not only improbable but impossible different than the Square-Circle...now I grant that the majority of atheists don't use logic and reason because I know a lot of irrational ones that believe in crazy things 2
inick1028i: what specifically is contradictory?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: a lot of things I could list but let us use the example we already used...all knowing and all powerful
inick1028i: im not exactly sure if i think its contradictory
DAREDEVIL BOADER: explain how that is not a contradiction without retreating to the defense that he is just simply God, or that he is outside the universe, or that we can't understand his nature...would I be justified is I defended the square-circle like that
DAREDEVIL BOADER: brb
inick1028i: same phone brb
DAREDEVIL BOADER: back
DAREDEVIL BOADER: explain how that is not a contradiction without retreating to the defense that he is just simply God, or that he is outside the universe, or that we can't understand his nature...would I be justified is I defended the square-circle like that
inick1028i: to be honest i dont think the definitions of all-knowing and all-powerful are correct if they contradict
DAREDEVIL BOADER: how about life without matter when life comes from matter
inick1028i: isnt that more of a creation argument if anything?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: no
inick1028i: how can you say to me life without matter if you dont believe a God exists?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: you know I was a devout Christian at one time...is it possible for you to face your family and friends...that is the question...are you willing to use reason and logic with God, if not why
inick1028i: im not totally sure i understand the question
DAREDEVIL BOADER: Are you willing to reject reason and logic at all costs to save the concept God so you can stay in your comfort zone? If so, why?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: =]
inick1028i: i am not willing to reject, it only if there is an argument that cannot be explained completely either way
DAREDEVIL BOADER: explain that...rephrase ur sentence
inick1028i: i am not willing to reject logic and reason, but if i feel there is a question that doesnt have an answer, i would make an exception
DAREDEVIL BOADER: like what type of question?
inick1028i: "why does God seem to kill so much in the old testament"
inick1028i: not sure if i can really give a logical answer
DAREDEVIL BOADER: well were are not talking about the morality espoused it the Bible...we are talking solely about existence
inick1028i: cause no one really knows
DAREDEVIL BOADER: like no one really knows that a square-circle exists?
inick1028i: i mean its not possible technically for it to exist
DAREDEVIL BOADER: why do u put the word technically in there?
inick1028i: just because sometimes people try all different kinds of logical ideas to prove otherwise but it still remains not possible
DAREDEVIL BOADER: explain
inick1028i: like the argument that you said before about it being possible in another universe
DAREDEVIL BOADER: so I would be correct if I told my math teacher that 2+2=5 was correct in another universe?
inick1028i: no thats whats i meant before, either way its impossible, but someone will try to prove that in that context
DAREDEVIL BOADER: like u r trying to save your concept of God
DAREDEVIL BOADER: I know you are intelligent and you were always civil...but this is what I am getting from you..."Logic, reason, science, objective reality, and my nature is telling me that God is not only improbable but impossible but I don't want to be honest with myself and my community because I am scared of rejection and my world getting turned upside down..." trust me, I know how it feels and it is hard. What are you thinking bro
DAREDEVIL BOADER: this is not an intellectual thing anymore...we both know intellectually God is an impossibility like the Square-Circle...we are now only dealing with emotions now
DAREDEVIL BOADER: I am here for you brother, I know it is very hard
inick1028i is away at 12:24:00 AM.
inick1028i returned at 12:29:08 AM.
inick1028i: hey man my bad i totally went afk
DAREDEVIL BOADER: welcome back
DAREDEVIL BOADER: what is afk
inick1028i: away from keyboard lol
inick1028i: honestly i dont believe for any reason of what people around me actually think
inick1028i: it just would be the ripple effect
inick1028i: of what would happen if i was an open atheist
DAREDEVIL BOADER: so you admit that it would suck if people found out that you bent due do your use of reason and logic
inick1028i: if i would convert to an atheist, yes alot of people would be upset/confused
DAREDEVIL BOADER: do you accept that you are only holding on the public belief of God because of emotional reasons
inick1028i: definitely not
inick1028i: because whether my feelings or body wants to, i will still read the bible and obey what it says
DAREDEVIL BOADER: are you sure about that?
inick1028i: yeah
DAREDEVIL BOADER: would you be willing to take my life? "They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman". (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
inick1028i: thats before the new covenant though
inick1028i: that isn't the messaged that God has for his people anymore, but the new covenant spoken through Jesus
DAREDEVIL BOADER: Jesus never rejected the Old Law
inick1028i: he established the new covenant
DAREDEVIL BOADER: but never rejected the Old Law
inick1028i: jesus said to bless your enemies and pray for them
DAREDEVIL BOADER: so how do you decide what in the Bible to follow?
DAREDEVIL BOADER: do you have an objective method of doing that?
inick1028i: the law was just to keep people sanctified but man was always saved through faith is God
inick1028i: here perfect biblical verse for what im trying to say
DAREDEVIL BOADER: the Bible has a lot in it but lets examine where the Bible gets its authority
inick1028i: romans 6:14 says we are no long under the law but have been saved by grace
DAREDEVIL BOADER: where does the Bible get its authority
inick1028i: from its claims to be inspired by God through the writers
DAREDEVIL BOADER: so if I write a book and I claim that a Square-Circle gave me inspiration...does something automatically get credit for inspiration if the author says it? and lets say we get over the problem...who says the Square-Circle as authority in the first place
DAREDEVIL BOADER: has*
inick1028i: the book has significant historical and scientific evidence proof
DAREDEVIL BOADER: so you will never consider atheism then?
inick1028i: i was there before, but now i am changed
DAREDEVIL BOADER: what in logic and reason led you 2 this concept...
inick1028i: logically the earth and everything about it is too significantly perfect to have inhabitants and i found truth through the bible
inick1028i: like to maintain itself, its impossible to just have occured
DAREDEVIL BOADER: it is interesting the you say something is impossible just because u can't comprehend it but when something is actually shown to be impossible by pointing out contradictions you reject that
inick1028i: well its almost close to impossible, but i also feel the same about the atheist argument that they believe God to be impossible because they can't comprehend it
inick1028i: i still dont really see the contradiction argument
DAREDEVIL BOADER: I agree with you that the weak atheist position is bullshit...that position is not rational...why don't you see the contradictions
inick1028i: because i dont think as humans we can really understand the extent of God or whether or not it would really contradict of God changed his mind about something if he knew the final scene
DAREDEVIL BOADER: what would make you become an atheist...what would have to happen
inick1028i: honestly dude, i really believe so much that i dont think i would give up my faith, cause im not just believing it for any social/family reason like many people do
inick1028i: would make you become a believer?
inick1028i: what(
DAREDEVIL BOADER: if God (Square-Circle) logically made sense in accordance with objective reality, reason, and science...If someone could demostrate that a self-contradictory being can logically exist within this universe
DAREDEVIL BOADER: dude, awesome convo. going to hit the sack now, peace out
inick1028i: yeah man totally! have a good one