Freedomain Radio

This is really a practical question, which touches on Stefs personal freedom issues, something of which I am currently undergoing many inner battles to resolve in myself... But some of you may or may not be aware of the ID scheme that is currently in progress over here in the UK...

This ID scheme is perhaps the most ambitious scheme ever introduced throughout the world. It not only encompasses your photo, but also fingerrint and iris scan as well. The latter wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the central database that is being enacted along side it. This database would include as I recall around 30 pieces of information on each citizen. It would also be linked to many other government databases, such as welfare, revenues, drivers license and medical records amongst others. The government would sell access to this database to private industry on a need to know principle (whatever that is?).

The most pernicious thing regarding this ID card scheme is that it's being launched via the Passport office. This means that when you apply for a passport you are in fact applying for an ID card. Currently you can apply for a Passport until 2010 and refuse the ID card. However you will still go on the ID card database which is the very thing that most people distrust. Bear in mind that once you are on this database you are obliged by criminal law to tell the government of any changes to your circumstance, including where you live at the pain of a possible £5000 fine throughout your whole life. This means that come April 2015 my passport will expire and if I ever wish to travel abroad again, including the EU I will have to get one.

The interesting thing is, that the government has called this scheme 'voluntary'. Although that expression is highly dubious considering almost all health care and workers with children will be expected to have one, including airport staff, Police, army, fire and even students applying for loans to go to University. All foreigners that are staying in the country for longer than 3 months will be expected to have one, this will commence this November..

Now my question is, if I wish to have personal liberty and I mean the liberty that Stef talks of (personal inner liberty), not political etc. Should I take the steps to reject it outright and choose to take the governments option of a voluntary adoption? Bear in mind I could find myself finding it increasingly difficult to operate in the real world as indeed I am sure the government will ask banks and large corporations to enforce its need further into the future. Could my rejection of it have a far more detrimental impact on my personal liberty than if I were to be a part of it? 

xelent:

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Now my question is, if I wish to have personal liberty and I mean the liberty that Stef talks of (personal inner liberty), not political etc. Should I take the steps to reject it outright and choose to take the governments option of a voluntary adoption? Bear in mind I could find myself finding it increasingly difficult to operate in the real world as indeed I am sure the government will ask banks and large corporations to enforce its need further into the future. Could my rejection of it have a far more detrimental impact on my personal liberty than if I were to be a part of it? 

 Well, personal liberty as we're talking about in this conversation means working on the things you actually have control over. For example, getting the corrupt people out of your life. Things like Real ID and so fourth are outside of our control. Yes, we could do X, Y, and Z to get around Real ID if or when it comes out but is it really worth it? We could also live out in the wilderness and do all sorts of strategies to avoid the State as much as possible, but then it seems to me that we would then be slaves to liberty, which is not very liberating.

Would you rather have no Real ID, no taxes, and so on and stuck with corrupt people in your personal life, or being free personally without those corrupt people and having put up with Real ID, taxes and so on from time to time?
 

Hmmn, thats a good point, I thought this would be my answer... I hadn't considered it like taxes, which of course I'm willing to pay... I guess I find this whole ID scheme very creepy... but i guess it's no worse than paying taxes and abiding by other stupid state laws...If we truly want personal freedom thats the price we pay, although personal freedom is a much better bargain... is that you take on it?....

Would you rather have no Real ID, no taxes, and so on and stuck with corrupt people in your personal life, or being free personally without those corrupt people and having put up with Real ID, taxes and so on from time to time? 

As a personal aside I would like both.... but I get your point 

xelent, i'm real sorry to hear about that real id they are forcing on your; i can understand how something that crappy could put a cloud over your head.

Personally, I find it helpful when faced with something being done to me outside of my control to exert some control on another aspect of my life. I'm with Joey on this one: the area of personal freedom is a great area to really grab hold of some of that control. The cool thing too is that unlike obedience training your dog or working on the medusa behind your tv/computer, steps made in the personal freedom arena can be as powerful to you personally as the real id is crappy. Maybe even moreso.

Doing something like "raising awareness" of the real id laws is like a false control; it makes you feel like you have some control over whether you are getting one but it really doesn't. So I wouldn't recommend doing anything like that. I think at best you'll just help pass on the despair you felt when you realized what was going on

So...tell us more about your family...

I wasn't considering raising awareness of it.. I was discussing whether my avoidance of the scheme would end up effecting my personal liberty in a negative way, rather than improve it..

I think Joey answered it quite well... I have no wish to live in a cave and I'm happy to pay my taxes, well as far as a means for still being involved in the real world.. It makes sense when you compare it too taxes, so I guess my question is answered...

You just worry as to where all this intrusion is taking us.. But on a more positive note its probably nailing the case for ridding ourselves of the State entirely for fresh minds..

My family are stupid, but whose arnt?... I'm building up for a shake down with my Father, but having allowed the last 20 years pass by with relative calm... It has been somewhat arduous reminding myself of those early years.. It has also been troubling me, due to the time factor, whether or not I am over dramatising it in my mind..

No doubt Stef would have some psychological reason for this, but it still bothers me..

xelent:

It has been somewhat arduous reminding myself of those early years.. It has also been troubling me, due to the time factor, whether or not I am over dramatising it in my mind..

No doubt Stef would have some psychological reason for this, but it still bothers me..

hey man, it's ok. I don't even remember much of my childhood. Then when I do, I remember why I don't remember. It's a defense mechanism and letting those down is work. it's like opening your hand after squeezing something for too long. You seem like an honest person; I wouldn't imagine that your emotions are exaggerated. I remember some of my exploration into my early years was way more intense then i thought it could have been. Also, doesn't help that defensive parents immediately tell you that you are making too big a deal out of it (happened a long time ago, you were young, you remembered it wrong). You're in a position of power because you're figuring out stuff you were never supposed to.

Also, the above is very much like the real id and not a thread hijacking at all...because of magic.

Whoa! Ned, thou hast returned! LTNS!

Hi Nate!

If you wish to remain among the living, you do what the men with guns demand of you...

In the meantime, you hone your philosophical skills, practice introspection and try to eliminate personal blocks to your own freedom, commiserate with fellow FDR'ers, work to spread the truth wherever and whenever you can, and try to imagine the world that will inherit what we are building here, right now, in spite of the National ID.

As stef says continually, this is a multi-generational project, that starts with ourselves. There's nothing we can do about the National ID. That's just a fact. But, there's plenty we can do about the world our grandchildren will have to live in.

 

 

xelent:

Hmmn, thats a good point, I thought this would be my answer... I hadn't considered it like taxes, which of course I'm willing to pay... I guess I find this whole ID scheme very creepy... but i guess it's no worse than paying taxes and abiding by other stupid state laws...If we truly want personal freedom thats the price we pay, although personal freedom is a much better bargain... is that you take on it?....

As a personal aside I would like both.... but I get your point

 Right, as it stands we have no control over whether to pay taxes or if the ID scheme gets through. We do have control over the relationships in our lives in terms of who stays and who gets out of our life, right? And let's face it, this whole freedom thing is a longterm project. If we are to convince people that this path is what will help free them then I think working on the things we can do right now will be more influential then them seeing us trying to constantly avoid the State and so fourth.

Does this make sense? Just think what it will be like if you were free from bad relationships in your personal life. Yeah, Real ID, taxes and so on are annoying, but those things will never force you to have dinner with somebody who did horrible things to you in your childhood.
 

Nathan:

Whoa! Ned, thou hast returned! LTNS!

Indeed, welcome back, Ned. We sure missed you and hope you'll be sticking around.  

America will have it's own soon enough.  But then, never is soon enough.  Our options at that point will be to either walk to minimum wage or 'under-the-table' type jobs or to live off the grid completely.  But that takes a lot of work.  If it was possible to generate enough momentum for a movement, we might be able to refuse en masse.  They can't arrest everyone.  But I think most people would be too apathetic to get behind something like that which leaves us with the political solution - angry letters to your congressperson; that sort of thing which wouldn't require as much effort.  But I'm too cynical to have any faith in that.  I will, however, try.

There is a solution to this problem...it's called "get the hell out of dodge" aka expatriation.  

I don't mean to trivialize the costs of doing so, but if you live in a society like the UK, and want to avoid being sucked into such a dehumanizing control grid, I say, vote with your feet!

Take up residence in another govt slave pen, ideally scoring submitizenship with a less onerous state mafia that so you can still get a passport and travel.

These days I don't see the point of worrying or complaining about these totalitarian tax-cattle-slave-population-enumeration schemes, as most people are too brainwashed to see what the problem is.  The amount of information that modern western democracies have on their submitizen slaves is something that Stalin and Hitler could have only dreampt about in their wettest of humanity crushing dreams.