Freedomain Radio

Hi all,

This is my first post and I thought I would ask a question that has been itching me ever since I became a libertarian. My conversion was about a year ago when I started reading some books of Rothbard and others. I started listening to Stefan's podcasts about a month ago and have agreed with nearly everything I have heard so far. However, I felt that it was important to read up on some counter-arguments to better understand why libertarianism is correct. I was satisfied to find that none of these contentions could stand up to Stefans' well thought out positions. However, I found one article that points out an inconsistencies for which I have not found a remedy.

www.policyalternatives.ca/documents/National_Office_Pubs/2006/Benefits_and_Costs_of_Taxation.pdf

Scandinavian countries, although the highest taxed, have the highest standard of living in the world. Having lived in both the United States and Sweden I can personally attest to this fact. I much prefer living in the States and I don't think I'll ever live in Sweden again. However, when I was living in Sweden it did strike me that they seemed to have solved most problems associated with poverty, education, and  healthcare. There was essentially no one living in poverty, with the exception of those who chose that life, ie alcoholics. I went through the education system in Sweden and found it to be of higher quality than the system in the U.S. Finally, I never heard anyone complain about the healthcare there and most enthusiastically supported the state system. I know that does not mean it a successful system but it did make me think twice in light of my other experiences.

I, in no way, support their coercive method of dealing with these problems and I found the lack of social and economic freedom very troubling. However, I have never been able to rectify this inconsistency with my libertarian beliefs. If a free market always provides a higher standard of living and the best solution to these social necessities then why is the standard of living higher in the Nordic countries than the United States?

I tried following your link but it was dead.

Anyway, I would simply ask about the morality of the system first.  Is it okay for one person to live at the expense of another when both parties are not necessarily in agreement?  This gets into the ends justifying the means.

 Here are a few hard numbers I found.  This chart shows through visual representation that Sweden is affording such a high life because of its debt as part of GDP.  Here you will find various indicators including debt; it appears that Sweden is running about 85 million kronas in the red currently.  This article explains how Sweden has carried about 85% debt as a percentage of its GDP and government spending accounts for the largest chunk of domestic economic activity (60%).  This debt has been pared down but will never disappear.  To borrow a line from Ron Paul about the US economy, "If I borrow $1million a week I look rich on paper."  But of course this type of spending/economy is predicated on the idea that lenders will perpetually loan out money and never ask for it to be repaid.  It is unsustainable to say the least and will ruin all Swedes when the system crashes since they are now so dependent on the government to be the largest economic force in their society.

Note that the US has the same model; borrow and spend then never repay but do balance transfers or find new lenders.  It is only that the US chooses to spend this credit mostly on war.  This serves to only enrich a few in society so this economy is seen as bad since it confers no large, widespread social benefit.  Sweden chooses to run a welfare state so it seems that society is given great benefit from this type of profligacy.

Hi - of course, if most Swedes like the system, the government doesn't need the guns, right?

Just think of all the overhead they could save by turning taxation into a voluntary donation.

Why don't they do that? 

I have some experience with Norway, which is somewhat similar, but I noticed that although incomes are high, they don't go out for dinner very often, because prices are very high as well. I would like to see their wealth measured in real spending power. I also noticed that the amount of nationalist and egalitarian propaganda to keep the thing going is very high (although in Norway higher than in Sweden). Alcoholism is also a big problem, and this is usually blamed on the high elevation and dark winters, but I sometimes wonder if the amount of slavery has something to do with it as well (pure speculation). The taxes are usually so high, both partners have to work full time to pay them, leaving the kids to be raised at the state propaganda center.

I have recently been joined by a colleague from China, who studied in Sweden, since it was free, but decided right after his graduation not to work there because taxes were so high. He figured he would not get most of the benefits, since those go mainly to parents with children he figured.

I wondered if Sweden is going to educate all the Chinese for free.

Sweden discussed on reason.tv

pcrs:

I wondered if Sweden is going to educate all the Chinese for free.

Will Sweden educate an American for free? Woohoo! Free edjimakation!

I'm not 100% sure, but my guts tells me they would be honored. You mention dog eat dog raw capitalism in the US prevents the common gal from getting education and I'm pretty sure your set. Might even make it on TV. Request political asylum, make a show of it. People who self attack can be manipulated.

In Sweden kids are obligated to invite all the kids out of class to their birthday party to prevent bullying

In Lund an 8 year old kid invited everyone from his class to his birthday party, except for 2 girls. 1 girl because he was not invited to her birthday party, the other because she had harrassed him frequently. After the teacher noticed the two were not invited he compounded all invitations. This rule has been years old and is written down in many schools. The only other option is to invite only all boys or all girls.

The teacher said the kids were so devastated that the two girls could not come, they voluntarily handed in their invitations. But the father of the boy had another story: he claimed the kids did not understand why they had to hand in their invitations. Member of parlament Lars Hansson of the liberal peoples party declared the teacher had done the right thing, he is there to prevent hurtfull behaviour. According to polls he has 53% of Swedes backing him.

Being a college kid, I hear the "argument from Scandinavia" a lot.

As is always the case with state programs, the state can always focus on who benefits from them while downplaying who loses. Furthermore, benefits can be distributed in such a way that most people living in that country will experience them and that testimonials will point to the success of state programs. It's when you peel off the wallpaper and start looking into the structure that you see the rot, like the massive government debt per capita.

Among other things, there is the niche that Sweden has carved out for itself in the highly mercantilist EU. The creation of an organization with the scope of powers like the EU now allows governments to steal from citizens lying outside of its borders through a regional government instead. The EU's trade policies are no doubt discriminatory in their benefits to certain member nations. The imposition of a uniform currency also means that every EU nation suffers the effects of inflationary forces, while not participating equally in its causes. Leaner governments suffer the consequences of inflation while larger ones keep on spending. It's like a race to the bottom of government efficiency.

All the while, the mercantilism of the EU as a whole assists in keeping the third world in the shitter.

These are just a few of many reasons as to why "Europe's socialist economic success" is one gigantic lie. It's always fun to rip the veil off of that one! :)

In Sweden kids are obligated to invite all the kids out of class to their birthday party to prevent bullying

In Lund an 8 year old kid invited everyone from his class to his birthday party, except for 2 girls. 1 girl because he was not invited to her birthday party, the other because she had harrassed him frequently. After the teacher noticed the two were not invited he compounded all invitations. This rule has been years old and is written down in many schools. The only other option is to invite only all boys or all girls.

I covered this story on my radio show and wasn't really shocked to hear more than one person try to rationalize the policy. I pointed out the gun, got the standard "what gun?," then explained it, then got the good old "what a weirdo" rap.

chewgarus:

Being a college kid, I hear the "argument from Scandinavia" a lot.

It deserves a more scientific name, what about: Argumentus Scandinavicus

Aviator:

Scandinavian countries, although the highest taxed, have the highest standard of living in the world. Having lived in both the United States and Sweden I can personally attest to this fact.

Are you saying that the more property is stolen from you, the better off you will be?

Because it seems that you are implying losing money equals a higher standard of living.