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Latest post 09-21-2008 7:10 PM by C. Dexter Ward. 12 replies.
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  • 01-14-2008 7:49 PM

    Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    Hi, im back! =)

    Guys i just wanted to chat with you about probably the best fiction book i've ever read. I mean Oh My God!, WHAT A GREAT BOOK ATLAS SHRUGGED IS! I just finished to read it, it took me around 34 hours to read it but it was worth it every single second. What a great way to write a novel, what a powerful message. I mean, ive already knew about her philosophy, and the hole thing around her main ideas, but read the actual book is just amazing.  

    I know Stef was greatly influenced  by Rand, and i would like to know about your experience if you already read it. I think Stef has improved her philosophy greatly but i think her idea was so innovating, so powerful that her merit must be appreciated. Im so in love with life, more than i was before and trust me that i was quit in love with it, but read Atlas Shrugged is just like to boost life! Awsome.

    Let me know what you think about it. ;)

    Atheist Evolution
  • 01-14-2008 8:07 PM In reply to

    Re: Ayn's Rand Philosophy!

    I loved that book, though I prefer the Fountainhead overall. It was just wonderfully exciting, and totally set my brain on fire!Big Smile


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  • 01-14-2008 8:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Ayn's Rand Philosophy!

    Howdy, Proud!

    Yours seems to be a common reaction to the book, and I really do appreciate the philosophy, so I can understand your excitement! But, I have to admit, having read the book twice now, I just... can't... connect to it...

    I came at Objectivism from the "inside out", so to speak. I was originally a devotee of Mortimer Adler, and while researching some of the concepts in his Great Ideas series, I stumbled across "The Virtue of Selfishness" and "Philosophy: Who Needs it". Before those two books, I was only dimly aware of Ayn Rand, from a chance encounter with Atlas Shrugged when I was a teen (one that did not go well at all).

    After those two shorter works, I read Peikoff's tomb: "Objectivism: The Philosophy Of Ayn Rand". I *really* appreciate her Metaphysics and Epistemology, but her Ethics never quite sat right with me, for several reasons (which I won't detail here, since its sort of off topic). 

    Once I finished Peikoff's explanation of Objectivism, I figured I ought to read the novels, since that's what most everyone seemed to be really energized about  - much like yourself, here.

    I *much* preferred The Fountainhead to Atlas Shrugged, because I thought she did a better job at character development, and to me, the plot was FAR more believable. The whole book, to me, seemed like a gigantic thought experiment that relied on too many presumptions about human psychology, and behavior. Also, she set up all these tortured relationships that made no sense to me. Rearden and his family were the only ones that did: it was a clear case of de-foo. But: what the hell was up between Dagne and Eddie Willard? Why go through all the trouble to set up the history there, and then do nothing with it? What was the deal with Francisco Danconia stringing Dagne along - in my mind - utterly needlessly for TWELVE FRIKKIN YEARS? Why did Galt "hide" himself on the line for that same time period, if he so much loved this woman? Ridiculous. Nobody would wait that long. All so that Dagne would "get it" all by her lonesome? To me, that was borderline sociopathy.

    Which gets me to the next point: INDIFFERENCE to your fellow man, is a necessity for "freeing" yourself from the tyranny of statist mythology? Please. I lived THAT life for 20 years - and got nowhere fast.

    Then, there were the inconsistencies. Sigh. I ABSOLUTELY LOVED Rearden's court room speech, but then Rand has to go and dash it against the rocks of Ragnar Danneskjold's claim that military ships are the "necessary and proper activity of government"... WTF? Galt's speech was not bad, but went on and on and on and on, by comparison to Rearden's much simpler, much more precise, and much more consistent testament. Why? Because Galt tries to claim life itself is an objective value. Not so much.

    Top it all off, with all the main characters tossing off their evening wear, doning ninja outfits, and going on a James-Bond style raid to rescue John Galt. It was actually so comical, I found myself laughing out loud, picturing Hank Rearden jumping into the doorway of that Guard's station, and declaring his name: "DUT-DAH-DAH!! I'M HANK REARDEN!" All the team needed was red capes, and the comic book fantasy would be complete! Then, they fly off into the sunset, in their private jets.... ppfft...

    Anyway, apologies if I sort of rained on your picnic. I guess my hyper-critical motor got revved up a little too much. Funny - Rand isn't "Rand" enough for me... 

     

  • 01-15-2008 5:57 AM In reply to

    Re: Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    I felt like Stef did, with about 20-30% of Greg's hyper-critical approach Big Smile

    I loved the ideas, but I couldn't embrace it when I read it fully because I had some problems with the attitudes of the characters towards humanity.  I felt it was far too dark in many aspects.

    I think I should read it again though, after the positivity of Stef's approach to these sorts of ideas. 

    When people kill for a lie, they also murder the truth. - Stefan Molyneux

    “Don’t stop,” yes, no, I don’t, not ever, won’t, can’t. - J.C. Hewitt

  • 01-15-2008 6:07 AM In reply to

    Re: Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    Ah Greg, the wet blanket for the fires of enthusiasm. Big Smile

    I agree with Greg on his points though, I think Howard Roark gave a better speech in the Fountainhead and the characters were much better developed.

  • 01-15-2008 6:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    Things I learned from atlas shrugged

    Money is a moral system,allowing man to consume the same value as he creates.

    Railroad is an exciting business.

     Dagne looks hot in a blue dress and cape.

    Relationships should be bought with virtue.

    Volutary trade is mutually benificial.

    Involuntary trade and a crazy man can stop the clock of the world (destroy the gears mabye... something like that)

    John Galt actually existed (in the novel at least), and not just made up by a boy who liked annoying questions.

     

    Pirates are sexy.

     
    Bureaucrats are fools.

    Communism is evil.

    If you marry the wrong person you might end up killing yourself.

     
    Anything I missed?
     

  • 01-15-2008 6:59 PM In reply to

    Re: Ayn's Rand Philosophy!

    Greg Gauthier:

    Howdy, Proud!

    Yours seems to be a common reaction to the book, and I really do appreciate the philosophy, so I can understand your excitement! But, I have to admit, having read the book twice now, I just... can't... connect to it...

    I came at Objectivism from the "inside out", so to speak. I was originally a devotee of Mortimer Adler, and while researching some of the concepts in his Great Ideas series, I stumbled across "The Virtue of Selfishness" and "Philosophy: Who Needs it". Before those two books, I was only dimly aware of Ayn Rand, from a chance encounter with Atlas Shrugged when I was a teen (one that did not go well at all).

    After those two shorter works, I read Peikoff's tomb: "Objectivism: The Philosophy Of Ayn Rand". I *really* appreciate her Metaphysics and Epistemology, but her Ethics never quite sat right with me, for several reasons (which I won't detail here, since its sort of off topic). 

    Once I finished Peikoff's explanation of Objectivism, I figured I ought to read the novels, since that's what most everyone seemed to be really energized about  - much like yourself, here.

    I *much* preferred The Fountainhead to Atlas Shrugged, because I thought she did a better job at character development, and to me, the plot was FAR more believable. The whole book, to me, seemed like a gigantic thought experiment that relied on too many presumptions about human psychology, and behavior. Also, she set up all these tortured relationships that made no sense to me. Rearden and his family were the only ones that did: it was a clear case of de-foo. But: what the hell was up between Dagne and Eddie Willard? Why go through all the trouble to set up the history there, and then do nothing with it? What was the deal with Francisco Danconia stringing Dagne along - in my mind - utterly needlessly for TWELVE FRIKKIN YEARS? Why did Galt "hide" himself on the line for that same time period, if he so much loved this woman? Ridiculous. Nobody would wait that long. All so that Dagne would "get it" all by her lonesome? To me, that was borderline sociopathy.

    Which gets me to the next point: INDIFFERENCE to your fellow man, is a necessity for "freeing" yourself from the tyranny of statist mythology? Please. I lived THAT life for 20 years - and got nowhere fast.

    Then, there were the inconsistencies. Sigh. I ABSOLUTELY LOVED Rearden's court room speech, but then Rand has to go and dash it against the rocks of Ragnar Danneskjold's claim that military ships are the "necessary and proper activity of government"... WTF? Galt's speech was not bad, but went on and on and on and on, by comparison to Rearden's much simpler, much more precise, and much more consistent testament. Why? Because Galt tries to claim life itself is an objective value. Not so much.

    Top it all off, with all the main characters tossing off their evening wear, doning ninja outfits, and going on a James-Bond style raid to rescue John Galt. It was actually so comical, I found myself laughing out loud, picturing Hank Rearden jumping into the doorway of that Guard's station, and declaring his name: "DUT-DAH-DAH!! I'M HANK REARDEN!" All the team needed was red capes, and the comic book fantasy would be complete! Then, they fly off into the sunset, in their private jets.... ppfft...

    Anyway, apologies if I sort of rained on your picnic. I guess my hyper-critical motor got revved up a little too much. Funny - Rand isn't "Rand" enough for me... 

     

    Haha, nice!

    Putting the particular philosophical claims aside of course, I think your critique of the characters is greater composed of subjective preference more so than of literary merits. Sure, the characters were unrealistic, but the whole story is consistent in being that way. Most of the characters seem to be caricatures, which is essential to their place in the story.

    As Rand would say in her Rand way, she took a "rrrhomanteek" approach to Atlas. Because it was to be her grandest work of Objectivist philosophy it had to be clear, with no ambiguity or potential for confusion. At least that's how I interpreted it- Rand historians intervene now!!!

    You make a good point about the bizarre plot lines - the Eddie, Francisco, and Galt romance parts seemed out of place, but I'm going to play the agnostic card since I really, REALLY suck at deep literary analysis.

    I'm looking for someone to help me out with some WordPress web design for my blog - PM for details, will pay :)

  • 01-15-2008 8:46 PM In reply to

    • Chx
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    Re: Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    Objectivism is pretty much amazing, but I've had some bad experiences trying to get to know some randroids.  Believe it or not, John Galt's speech was one of my favorite parts of the book!  That's because it is really what the book is about - Atlas Shrugged is not just about the characters - it has a philosophical treatise integrated into it, and since I like philosophy  a whole lot the speech was the best.  Although it was long, it was comprehensive.  Completely comprehensive of the entire Objectivist philosophy.  Because it didn't repeat itself it was great.

    Anyway,  I think that Ayn put Eddie Willers and Cheryl in the story to make it a bit more down-to-earth.  Good guys can be fallible too.  Especially Cheryl.  If she really thought about philosophy - really sat down and pondered where her life was going - she'd have been blissfully divorsed with James - or at least disappeared.  So she's about the importance of philosophy and it being not enough just to have noble intents - one must find those intents out and act upon them.  Seriously, though, Galt's Gulch was probably running quite short of women.  She would have fit in wonderfully there!

    Anyway, don't take Objectivism too seriously or (at the risk of sounding like a broken record...) you'll end up like these guys.  Yes, Ayn Rand is cool.  Stef has really challenged her ethics, though, but I haven't read UPB 'cause I don't have a PayPal or e-gold and those whom I know that do (and I would compensate them and proxy-buy it) are neither secular nor rational.  I'd pre-order one and pay later, but I'm afraid I might forget or procrastinate.

     

    EDIT:

     

    Oh, and what's wrong with the comic book fantasy rescue?  I thought it was interesting. 

  • 01-15-2008 9:14 PM In reply to

    Re: Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    Well, i think the analysis made above is very much subjective, but valid. I think the part of the rescue of course was all fantasy but entertaining though. I think the whole idea is to make some suspense about Galts life, could he be saved? will he die? that kind of drama.

    On the other hand the Galt speech is definitively my favorite part. Is just great! although long, quit impressive.  And Eddie, well i dont know about him, i mean he is good, acording to Rand ethics, but is just doing somethings wrong and is incapable of accepting change, thats kind of sad, but i must agree with the gentleman who said that the Eddie-Dagny history with all her past and stuff didnt get anywhere. Probably the only idea of that part is to show someone who understood and admired Dagny since their youth. The Fransisco-Dagny history i found interesting.

    I read no too long ago that a Atlas Shrugged movie is being planned and scheduled. Its gonna come out probably by summer of 2009. It'll include Angelian Jolie on the cast, and probably Brad Pit. Let me know what u think about it! ;)

    Pos: I´ve read that Alan Greenspan was one of Rand students and friend. What do you think about his wokr on the Federal Reserve,  im not quit familiar with his politics and actions, i'd like to hear you opinion on that matter too, although thats economics :$

    Atheist Evolution
  • 02-04-2008 1:22 PM In reply to

    Re: Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    Well, Ayn Rand is ok, she went wrong on some (statism etc.) things but most of her positions are sound, thou not all of it is original thou (but who cares right!?).

    I'm not so in to Ayn Rand personally (I don't find the books that good- but they are ok. I prefer Rothbard and others), but that might be because I was both an atheist and an anarcho-capitalist before I ever read Rand.

    "The state is the great fiction by which everybody seeks to live at the expense of everybody else." / Frederic Bastiat
  • 08-22-2008 8:51 PM In reply to

    Re: Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    Unless I'm mistaken, Stef's book UPB is available for free on this website. I'm reading UPB right now, too. Going to paypal him anyway when I'm done.

    http://www.freedomainradio.com/free

  • 08-22-2008 8:54 PM In reply to

    Re: Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    Thanks Tenko! Big Smile


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  • 09-21-2008 7:10 PM In reply to

    Re: Ayn Rand's Philosophy!

    If you are interested in gaining a deeper, fuller understanding of Ayn Rand’s contributions to Aristotelianism, I recommend reading:

    The Journals of Ayn Rand edited by David Harriman (especially her entries that reference her work on The Fountainhead & Atlas Shrugged, which after reading those entries I fell further in love with the Fountainhead),

    Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical by Chris Sciabarra (a great introduction to the origins, contributions, and legacy of Ayn Rand’s philosophy),

    Reason and Value: Aristotle versus Rand by Roderick T. Long (if you found some tensions within Rand’s ethical theory Dr. Long draws them out and recommends an injection of dialectical aristotelianism for relief),

    Is Virtue Only A Means To Happiness? An Analysis Of Virtue And Happiness In Ayn Rand's Writings by Neera K. Badhwar (same deal with Dr. Long’s book, tensions relaxed),

    and finally, I cannot recommend enough, the ongoing exploration and investigation of Ayn Rand’s philosophy, The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies (last time I checked back issues were only $5 each).

    I hope these are helpful, enjoyable, keep the brains humming and the tensions massaged.

    P.S. I also recommend Chris Sciabarra's monograph Ayn Rand, Homosexuality, and Human Liberation (he really makes the case for removing Ayn Rand the person from the Philosophy of Ayn Rand).

    "Student! Forever!" Cheers, The atheist, anarchist, and citizen of the world; C. Dexter Ward
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