Freedomain Radio

Hey All,

I've been having this problem with emotionally convincing myself to defoo; I see my parents lives without me and I feel their heartache. Even though there has been blackmail, some physical abuse and overall very bad parenting, I feel reluctant to leave. My mother annoys me by continuously talking about things that have no meaning and being pessimistic and rejecting of my personal endeavors. My father is cold and has hardly ever shown any affection towards me, and has subjected me to religion from a young age which I have only now realized was a lie. After listening to close to 1000 podcasts, my intellectual perspective on life has been completely turned upside down. I have made a ton of changes in my life, but there is one which till now has been far too elusive, defooing. I am 19 years old, soon to be going on 20 and I am about to move out of home, however I feel a sincere sense of worry for my parents as they near retirement. My plan was to move out of home and to minimize the contact with my family, that was before I was introduced to the wonders of philosophy and psychology. Now as I contemplate cutting all remaining connection from my family I cant help but feel a great deal of guilt towards my future actions. I'm not completely sure but I think that this is a result of being bullied both at home and in the school system. In a sense I feel that by removing myself from their lives I will cause a great deal of emotional stress for them. My father whom I blame most of the implicit abuse I was subjected to as a child on was also the youngest sibling, his father died at a young age and he was left yo be raised by an alcoholic. Because I understand that my family cannot think like me, and that I will never be able to change them, the only rational choice is to defoo, however at the same time, I feel like my actions are in themselves emotionally wrong. When I picture the hurt that they will feel when I leave them, I sacrifice myself for their benefit. Is my empathy my ruining or is it a sign that I am possibly making a wrong choice?

 Sorry if my reasoning seems a bit all over the place, I find it really hard to talk about these things without putting up the defenses.
 

Hi Dominic,

When you feel empathy for your parents, what do you think they will feel if/when you defoo? It doesn't sound like they care about you much as a person so I wonder what they will miss. If they would truly miss you as "you" then I would guess you would have a lot more luck talking to them about what is important to you and they would be receptive and curious and interested in "you." And you would have no desire to defoo. But if they are only using you to try to handle their own emotions and not face their own decisions and behaviors to you, do you really feel it is necessary to be their "love robot?"

I feel for you.  . This is a tough thing to confront at a young age. Good luck either way.

Tim

ash:

Who are your emotions serving?

Right to the hard hitting, bulls eye questions.  

Hi Dominic. 

The first thing that comes to my mind is: can you really have empathy for people who have little or no empathy for you? Or if you do have empathy, is it a good thing if it enables them to have the illusion that they are good people? Feeling the pain (or perceived pain) of others is one of the main things that has held me back in life. I am finally learning to not try to manage other people's emotions or perceptions about me; that just makes me a slave to them or my anxieties about them.

That's great that you are moving out soon. At this point you can choose to minimize contact or deFOO. If there is little or no reciprocity or mutual respect and trust in the relationship, I would strongly suggest deFOOing. It doesn't have to be permanent. If you choose, you can come back later when you are stronger and more independent and see if there's anything worth salvaging. For you own emotional health in the meantime, I think declaring independence is a great thing. I am in the process of establishing real-time relationships with the people in my life. I had already established something close to "free-market" relationships, and even those require a mutual benefit and mutually acceptable terms; that often meant keeping my distance (so what's the point of the relationship?). I had refused to accept the idea of sacrifice or altruism. The real-time relationship adds the factor of letting go of fears and anxieties so that one can be vulnerable without being a slave to anyone's emotions; this is where the real liberation comes from.

If your family is hurt when you leave them, that is a situation they have created with their own actions. It may very well be that they were also victims at one time, but if they are not willing and able to change, there is nothing you can do, and you can save your empathy for those who deserve it. You certainly have mine!

ciscokid1024:

When you feel empathy for your parents, what do you think they will feel if/when you defoo?

But if they are only using you to try to handle their own emotions and not face their own decisions and behaviors to you, do you really feel it is necessary to be their "love robot?"

 When I feel empathy for my parents, I see the further anguish they will feel when I leave. It feels like I'm kicking a homeless man on the street. I guess I'm just finding it hard to reconcile both my values with my emotions. I feel like I'm leaving my father in the darkness less 200K in pocket (about what It cost to raise me), and I'm not sure but I have a feeling that this may have to do with my own fear of solitude.

On the 2nd question, as tragic as it seems, I kind of do feel like it's a necessary evil to take a few hits as the love robot. I feel as though I owe them something, even though their choice to have me was a bilateral agreement. Also, even though I dislike my older brother and sister, by leaving, I would only be leaving them to the dogs with an increase in positive obligations.
 

Nathan:

Man, I feel both envy and empathy for your situation.  Are you a student?

Well, ahahha, technically I am, but the reason I am leaving home is that myself and my non-corrupted best friend are heading overseas to teach English, travel and save money. Financially I have been saving up for some time, and I have enough money to pay rent at least for a year till I sort things out. Also I have some qualifications as a graphic designer and should I need to I can work full time.

Cheers
 

ash:

Who are your emotions serving?

Maybe you can help me figure that one out =S? It's either that they serve my parents to control me, or that they serve me to protect me?

dominic_deluca:

Hey All,

I've been having this problem with emotionally convincing myself to defoo; I see my parents lives without me and I feel their heartache. Even though there has been blackmail, some physical abuse and overall very bad parenting, I feel reluctant to leave. My mother annoys me by continuously talking about things that have no meaning and being pessimistic and rejecting of my personal endeavors. My father is cold and has hardly ever shown any affection towards me, and has subjected me to religion from a young age which I have only now realized was a lie.

...

Is my empathy my ruining or is it a sign that I am possibly making a wrong choice?

So, would you say an excess of empathy is your problem? Do you feel like you have empathy for yourself?

"I feel that by removing myself from their lives I will cause a great deal of emotional stress for them." do you have empathy for the "emotional stress" you've experienced and continue to experience caused by your parents? "When I picture the hurt that they will feel" do you have empathy for the "hurt" you have felt?

you've listened to the podcast so you've heard this stuff. You remember the beating someone in a wheelchair metaphor? that's what I thought about when you said you felt it was like kicking a homeless man on the street to deFOO.

 well, look deFOOing is hard, I can't deny that. But I don't think your problem is an excess of empathy.

J-William:

So, would you say an excess of empathy is your problem? Do you feel like you have empathy for yourself?

"I feel that by removing myself from their lives I will cause a great deal of emotional stress for them." do you have empathy for the "emotional stress" you've experienced and continue to experience caused by your parents? "When I picture the hurt that they will feel" do you have empathy for the "hurt" you have felt?

you've listened to the podcast so you've heard this stuff. You remember the beating someone in a wheelchair metaphor? that's what I thought about when you said you felt it was like kicking a homeless man on the street to deFOO.

 well, look deFOOing is hard, I can't deny that. But I don't think your problem is an excess of empathy.

I guess the empathy comes from the person I was before I started listening to FDR. The problem is that I can easily imagine myself following the same path as my parents if it wasn't for this community. It's as if my awareness of the subtle, but critical damage that i suffered as a result of my sub-par upbringing has put my frame of morality into a different universe to my parents. I can imagine myself being in their situation, where they are both ignorant and trapped by their incapacity to accept morality and genuine values. I guess the fact that I am going to hurt them, hurts me and It's hard for me to inflict pain onto anyone, even if it's restitution. Maybe I'm just yet to convince myself that I'm bigger than their pettiness?

The podcast series on predatory depression really struck a chord me me, but It's strange because my situation to an outsider would look completely different. What I found familiar was this sense of doubt on the emotional side, even if intellectually I can 120% validate the process of defooing. I kind of expected that when i time was soon to come I would feel overjoyed that I was leaving bad people, and a sense of anger towards my family, yet there's still this emotional block which is holding me back.

thankyou everyone for the feedback, I appreciate your time and effort! Cheers! 

Hi Karl,

To me it's almost like reading a Superman cominc where you're given all of the background information on the villain Lex Luthor, you know that Lex is bad, but you also have a degree of understanding about the causality. I'm not sure why, but even though my parents have caused me a considerable degree of pain, somehow the fact that they are corrupted people makes the gravity of their actions less intentional. If it's not possible to have empathy for those that have none for me, than what else could I be feeling? -- Cheers.
 

so you could see how you would fall into the same situation as your parents  but you think you are not because of FDR.  so if you are trying to talk to your parents about the things that are important to you, philosophy, love, goodness etc.  and they refuse to discuss it then they are making the CHOICE to reject it. before they had no option because no one presented the choice to them but now someone is.  you are giving them the chance to change their future and they are refusing to do so. 

these topics are very difficult for anyone to deal with but if others are not willing to even discuss them then they are unwilling to change
can you have empathy for someone who has no empathy for themselves?

dominic_deluca:

Hi Karl,

To me it's almost like reading a Superman cominc where you're given all of the background information on the villain Lex Luthor, you know that Lex is bad, but you also have a degree of understanding about the causality. I'm not sure why, but even though my parents have caused me a considerable degree of pain, somehow the fact that they are corrupted people makes the gravity of their actions less intentional. If it's not possible to have empathy for those that have none for me, than what else could I be feeling? -- Cheers.
 

You might very well be feeling empathy, and there's no doubt that you're quite aware of the causality of their unhappiness. But when you're living in the same house, I think you're too close to see the situation objectively. No doubt you are repeatedly drawn into their emotional world, which is probably quite depressing. When you are independent and have some distance from the situation, you can choose your companions based on mutual benefit. When you get used to that, you may recoil at the prospect of returning to a depressing and dysfunctional situation of unchosen positive obligations or a situation where you feel like you can't be yourself. What would happen if you were totally honest with them, emotionally and intellectually? (hypothetically... I realize this is not necessarily something you want to do before you move out)