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Latest post 10-16-2007 9:41 PM by Stefan Molyneux. 13 replies.
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  • 10-13-2007 10:23 PM

    • Rich
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    Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    I posted this on my blog, but would like to get feedback from the members of this forum to help me refine my argument.

    After weeks of debating this subject I am ready to better define my philosophy. I am no longer an Objectivist because I do not support the idea of a government with a monopoly of protection (which I will refer to as “a state” from this point forward). Objectivism has an inherent contradiction with its support of a state. The contradiction lies with a collective body of any sort violating the non-aggression principle. If you are born within the borders of a state, you are forced to participate in it and this is where the non-aggression contradiction arises. Since you have no choice to where you are born, a state of any form presents you with no choice of self defense. The idea of a country or state is a tribalist and collectivist notion. When you are born within the boundaries of a state, you are subject to a group of individuals who force you to use their protection services. Even in a state that touts a voluntary tax, you are still subject to the rules of the state, and any attempt to form your own protection agency would be stopped with force. There is simply no rational reason to assume that individuals require a government to live rationally. The very idea that this is required assumes that men will generally act irrationally. The idea that anarchy would degrade into gang warfare is a mistrust in people to generally do the right thing.

    Pragmatically speaking, I do not think anarchy is a possibility any time soon. I think that ideas need to spread more, and men need a consensus on philosophy before anarchy is able to work properly. I think the reason governments exist today is because of age old fears that men need to be controlled in order to act in a rational manner. I think this view is a poor outlook on humanity and needs to be changed by supporting the spread of ideas. Only with a change in a majority of individuals thinking, only when we can trust each other to be rational, can we evolve into a society that is no longer so afraid that it requires borders, patriotism and government. I think it is wrong for Objectivists to continue to support the idea of a country, state, government or any group of individuals that have a higher right than any individual. I think this idea is dangerous and more destructive when it is backed by the rational axioms of Objectivism. I encourage Objectivists to carefully think about this idea and consider it before writing off anarchy as “no better than a dictatorship”. I understand the knee jerk reaction that anarchy is bad. I had the same reaction when I first considered it. But with further thought, I realize that I can not hold that contradiction any longer. No matter how against practicality it seems. Men are at their best when they are as free as possible, and I see no greater freedom than a society in which men do business with each other completely voluntarily, where the individual is completely responsible for his/her own life, and without any need for a state to protect or control them, because the individual has all of the philosophical tools at their minds disposal to take care of his/her self.

    I hesitate to call myself a market anarchist or anarcho-capitalist because these political philosophies fail to recognize important axioms. There is no word for the philosophy I support now, but it is basically Objectivism without the recognition for the need of a state of any form.  Stefan Molyneux is the closest philosopher I identify with.  I will further refine this post as I find points that require clarification.  I wrote this fairly quickly and am sure there are pieces missing, so be sure to ask me questions if you are confused by my argument.

  • 10-14-2007 1:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    I hesitate to call myself a market anarchist or anarcho-capitalist because these political philosophies fail to recognize important axioms. There is no word for the philosophy I support now, but it is basically Objectivism without the recognition for the need of a state of any form. 

    Not to get caught up in labels, but objectivists or former objectivists who have concluded in favor of anarchism I've seen refered to as "post-objectivists" or "anarcho-objectivists" or "rational anarchists". There's a youtube user named XOmniverse who is a "former" objectivist that "converted" to market anarchism yet still essentially holds completely to the philosophy of rational egoism. I enjoy his videos and hope you do too.

    Anyways, I agree that the idea of a nation-state, even the Randian notion of a "voluntary" or "subscribed" nation-state, is inherently collectivist. I think you're on the right track. You are correct in your logic that being bound to a particular organization for life merely for being born within a particular territory is, well, kind of like involuntary servitude for life. And while you make a good point about rationalizing the state with the assumption of irrationality on the part of the populace, I'd also like to point out the inherent and peculiar elitism involved in this: it also presumes that the members of the government will be rational. In other words, in conjunction with a point I often like to make when debating with statists, all pessemistic views of human nature that is brought up as a criticism of anarchy applies equally to the individual members of the government, except the government is even worse in the sense that it presents a mechanism of power by which those very same flaws and negative aspects of human nature can be manifested through that would not exist in an anarchy. Government or no government, human nature remains the same. So the true question is (at least in consequentialist terms, although I'm not much of a consequentialist), given the flaws of human beings, do these flaws have better or worse effects under a monopolistic power structure or in the abscence of one? And if the ethic of individual sovereignty holds true (and is therefore consistantly and universally applied), how on earth could one concievably be in favor of a state (a "collective" sovereignty that is granted the power to do things that the individual cannot) in any form?

    A classic Frederic Bastiat quote comes to mind. "If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" -- Frederic Bastiat

    "The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake." -- H.L. Mencken
  • 10-14-2007 7:05 AM In reply to

    • Rich
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    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    I am subscribed to XOmniverse and he is part of the reason I started thinking about anarchy.  He too hesitates to claim a label for his philosophy.  I have heard him refer to himself as a rational egoist, but I think this is still too broad for my comfort...  but, I'm not to concerned with labels anymore.  What matter most are ideas.

    I like that quote, thanks for digging it up and helping to clarify my points.

  • 10-14-2007 5:27 PM In reply to

    • Uncle Bob
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    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    maf:

    I hesitate to call myself a market anarchist or anarcho-capitalist because these political philosophies fail to recognize important axioms.

    What axioms are not recognized by anarcho-capitalism?

    (btw, I don't like to use the word anarchy in any of its forms in attempt to describe a society free from the "aggression principle", i.e. government, because of it's widespread association with the image of gangs with guns an knives ruling the streets. Just check the dictionary. So I guess I could rephrase my question to you as - what axioms are not recognized by a society free from government? At least my interpretation of Stef's philosophy holds that anarcho-capitalism is pretty much merely the lack of existence of a monopoly on the use of force.)

  • 10-14-2007 8:15 PM In reply to

    • Rich
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    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    What axioms are not recognized by anarcho-capitalism?
    I guess it's not really that the axioms aren't recognized.  It's that they aren't defined.  Basically I have a problem with any philosophy that is not all encompassing.  Anarcho-capitalism is a political philosophy where-as Objectivism is a full fledged philosophy.  That's why I hesitate to call myself an anarcho-capitalist.  If anarcho-capitalism touched upon metaphysics, epistemology, ethics and politics then I could associate the word with myself.  Until that day, it is too broadly defined for my comfort.
  • 10-14-2007 8:21 PM In reply to

    • Rich
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    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    Paul McKeever, leader of the Freedom Party in Canada, just released this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSnCYPXdnUk

    I'd like to think I encouraged this response, because he has corresponded with my girlfriend in the past and is aware of my blog.  Perhaps he saw my post and decided it was time to do a video.  I'll watch it and respond soon.  I encourage you all to do the same.

  • 10-14-2007 8:26 PM In reply to

    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    I've always thought of anarcho-capitalism as an effect of rational philosophy, rather than a philosophy of it's own.

    http://tails-dx.deviantart.com/gallery/ My 12 year old daughter's art

  • 10-15-2007 2:01 AM In reply to

    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    maf:
    I guess it's not really that the axioms aren't recognized.  It's that they aren't defined.  Basically I have a problem with any philosophy that is not all encompassing.  Anarcho-capitalism is a political philosophy where-as Objectivism is a full fledged philosophy.  That's why I hesitate to call myself an anarcho-capitalist.  If anarcho-capitalism touched upon metaphysics, epistemology, ethics and politics then I could associate the word with myself.  Until that day, it is too broadly defined for my comfort.

    well, and I mean this with all-due respect, it seems your anxiety rests mostly on not being able to assume some sort of collective identity. Now, the only reason I bring it up is because I think that until you ditch that habit you'll be frustrated later on. Someone on here either has or had a signature that kind of describes it "if two people agree on everything, one of them isn't thinking." essentially the label "anarcho-capitalist" should be just a verbal shorthand for your own personal ideology.

    I don't mean to come off preachy or anything, I just picked up on that (may be wrong, I don't know you that well) and figured it might help to point that out. 

  • 10-15-2007 6:41 AM In reply to

    • Rich
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    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    well, and I mean this with all-due respect, it seems your anxiety rests mostly on not being able to assume some sort of collective identity.
    As a former Objectivist I am a stickler for semantics.  I can understand why you think I have an anxiety about attaching myself to a new philosophy, but I really don't.  I actually feel a bit freed to no longer label myself as this or that.  I just weary about labeling myself an anarcho-capitalist due to the loose definition.  That's all. 
  • 10-15-2007 6:55 AM In reply to

    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    Just call yourself a 'philosopher'Big Smile

    Shorthand is so unhelpful in thought...


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  • 10-15-2007 9:02 PM In reply to

    • Colleen
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    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    Brainpolice:

    I'd also like to point out the inherent and peculiar elitism involved in this: it also presumes that the members of the government will be rational. In other words, in conjunction with a point I often like to make when debating with statists, all pessemistic views of human nature that is brought up as a criticism of anarchy applies equally to the individual members of the government, except the government is even worse in the sense that it presents a mechanism of power by which those very same flaws and negative aspects of human nature can be manifested through that would not exist in an anarchy. Government or no government, human nature remains the same. So the true question is (at least in consequentialist terms, although I'm not much of a consequentialist), given the flaws of human beings, do these flaws have better or worse effects under a monopolistic power structure or in the abscence of one? And if the ethic of individual sovereignty holds true (and is therefore consistantly and universally applied), how on earth could one concievably be in favor of a state (a "collective" sovereignty that is granted the power to do things that the individual cannot) in any form?

    I just wanted to give a big huzzah to this. This is a principle that I, too, overlooked for a long time, even though it's implicit in a lot of the typical complaints about the government. We all know that the same corruption can exist in government "companies' that exists in companies within the free market, except that on top of this, the government monopolies don't have to deal with natural market forces and this corruption tends to manifest itself even more because of the ability to use force. Of course, this applies to every element of human nature, as you pointed out. Government can hardly be implemented to "protect us from ourselves" when they're run by the very people we're supposed to be protecting ourselves from: us! It seems so obvious, gah!   

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  • 10-16-2007 11:45 AM In reply to

    • Rich
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    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

  • 10-16-2007 9:32 PM In reply to

    • Robert
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    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    maf:

    XOmniverse responded to Paul McKeever's argument:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_tCYiPSgw 

    I've watched both videos and I was surprised XOmniverse didn't bring this up.  One of the things that Paul said was that in an anarcho-capitalist society, judges and police forces would be biased towards the person who paid the most money.  He went on to say that in an objectivist society judges and police officers would be paid out of a pool of money and that this would solve the problem of impartiality.  My question is: Where the hell does this "pool of money" come from?  Last time I checked Objectivists were against taxation, and unless this pool of money is filled by a flat fee tax ($X per person per month), then some people are going to be paying into this pool more than others.  In which case, you'd have the exact same situation in an objectivist society for which he denounced anarcho-capitalism for.  Judges and police officers could be pressured or encouraged threw incentives by their higher ups to favor some over others.

    Throughout that video it seemed like Paul had some sort of glorified vision of government.  If you can't trust individuals cooperating voluntarily to uphold objective principles when dealing with each other, how can you trust them to do so when you give them the moral justification to initiate coercion?

    Anyways, I suppose I'm just preaching to the choir.
     

  • 10-16-2007 9:41 PM In reply to

    Re: Anarchy: Why I’m Not an Objectivist

    Robert:
    maf:

    XOmniverse responded to Paul McKeever's argument:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_tCYiPSgw 

    I've watched both videos and I was surprised XOmniverse didn't bring this up.  One of the things that Paul said was that in an anarcho-capitalist society, judges and police forces would be biased towards the person who paid the most money.  He went on to say that in an objectivist society judges and police officers would be paid out of a pool of money and that this would solve the problem of impartiality.  My question is: Where the hell does this "pool of money" come from?  Last time I checked Objectivists were against taxation, and unless this pool of money is filled by a flat fee tax ($X per person per month), then some people are going to be paying into this pool more than others.  In which case, you'd have the exact same situation in an objectivist society for which he denounced anarcho-capitalism for.  Judges and police officers could be pressured or encouraged threw incentives by their higher ups to favor some over others.

    Throughout that video it seemed like Paul had some sort of glorified vision of government.  If you can't trust individuals cooperating voluntarily to uphold objective principles when dealing with each other, how can you trust them to do so when you give them the moral justification to initiate coercion?

    Anyways, I suppose I'm just preaching to the choir.
     

    hehe, does he think that this is not the case now?

    At least in Ancapistan there would be competition to bring the price down and impartiality up... 


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