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Latest post 09-06-2007 9:08 AM by JamesP. 86 replies.
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  • 09-03-2007 12:55 PM

    • AESTHETE
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-17-2007
    • Sacramento, CA
    • Posts 951
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    Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    ...but here's ANOTHER! Ahhh, you suckers!

     [youtube:k-7Y0j9FiIg]

    «Je voudrais, et ce sera le dernier et le plus ardent de mes souhaits, je voudrais que le dernier des rois fût étranglé avec les boyaux du dernier prêtre.» Jean Meslier

  • 09-03-2007 6:04 PM In reply to

    • AESTHETE
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 06-17-2007
    • Sacramento, CA
    • Posts 951
    • Silver Donator

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    anybody w/ a youtube account, please oh please go give my videos 5 stars.

    «Je voudrais, et ce sera le dernier et le plus ardent de mes souhaits, je voudrais que le dernier des rois fût étranglé avec les boyaux du dernier prêtre.» Jean Meslier

  • 09-03-2007 7:35 PM In reply to

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    That isn't proof of atheism. Conceptions of God such as the God of deism cannot be shown to be contradictory.

    Michael: (about Steve Holt) Your son? Gob: According to him. Michael: And a DNA test. Gob: I heard the jury's still out on science.

  • 09-03-2007 8:08 PM In reply to

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    Can you define the god of deism for us please?


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  • 09-03-2007 8:20 PM In reply to

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    The best that I can find:

    "The universal creative force which is the source of the laws and designs found throughout Nature."

    "   We view God as an eternal entity whose power is equal to his/her will. The following quote from Albert Einstein also offers a good Deistic description of God: "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.""

     

     A powerful creative force outside of the natural world that has created all that we see would, I guess, be a good definition of the common deist's conception of God.
     

    Michael: (about Steve Holt) Your son? Gob: According to him. Michael: And a DNA test. Gob: I heard the jury's still out on science.

  • 09-03-2007 8:32 PM In reply to

    • Cooper MacLean
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-21-2006
    • Dallas, Texas Prefecture of the American Imperium
    • Posts 801

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    I would script it more.  The thoughts and ideas were good but the execution seemed a little clumsy.  Maybe have a notecard nearby with the points you wish to highlight and some "bridge" ideas between them.  Not talking about getting a make-up artist or a teleprompter but maybe a little more polish through rehearsal.  Youtube is filled with many off the cuff expositions and so many good idea gets lost in the noise.

    "Better a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion." - Edward Abbey

  • 09-03-2007 10:13 PM In reply to

    • AESTHETE
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    • Joined on 06-17-2007
    • Sacramento, CA
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    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    When I talk about God, I'm not talking about Pantheism.
    Einstein was a Pantheist.
    I'm not refuting his idea,
    which is more of a sense of appreciation for the beauty of existence than worship of a conscious entity.

    And the deistic concept that you defined at the bottom is EASILY refuted.
    If he is outside of the 'natural world', by which I assume you mean the universe under natural laws,
    he by definition can not have come into existence naturally.
    It raises more questions than it answers.
    It doesn't pass Ockham's test.
    It is incorrect.

    «Je voudrais, et ce sera le dernier et le plus ardent de mes souhaits, je voudrais que le dernier des rois fût étranglé avec les boyaux du dernier prêtre.» Jean Meslier

  • 09-03-2007 11:28 PM In reply to

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    You didn't refute anything, the belief in God isn't necessarily motivated by any need to answer anything. You've only proven that as a hypothesis it's not as good as a simpler one and that there is no compelling reason to believe it but that doesn't prove that there is no God. You've only proven that belief in a Deist God is unjustified.

     Atheism still stands without proof.

     

    Michael: (about Steve Holt) Your son? Gob: According to him. Michael: And a DNA test. Gob: I heard the jury's still out on science.

  • 09-04-2007 4:12 AM In reply to

    • JamesP
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-28-2007
    • Denver, Colorado
    • Posts 1,652
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    Since when does atheism require proof?  Atheism is the default position, or the lack of a positive claim.  Theists are the ones making positive claims about the existence of their god and/or gods (and the non-existence of other gods, or hierarchical claims regarding their god's position in the ethereal realm) and thus the burden of proof is on them to support their claims, not the other way around.

    Got proof? 

    some of my own personal archaeology

  • 09-04-2007 7:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    James P.:

    Since when does atheism require proof?

    I'm not saying it does that's for each individual to decide.

      

    James P.:
    Atheism is the default position, or the lack of a positive claim.  Theists are the ones making positive claims about the existence of their god and/or gods (and the non-existence of other gods, or hierarchical claims regarding their god's position in the ethereal realm) and thus the burden of proof is on them to support their claims, not the other way around.

    Got proof? 


    This does nothing to prove Atheism to be true only that it is more rational. Atheism can't be proven to be true. Just because someone doesn't have evidence that there exists something beyond nature it doesn't mean that you can safely conclude that there isn't anything outside or beyond nature and that atheism is proven correct.

    Michael: (about Steve Holt) Your son? Gob: According to him. Michael: And a DNA test. Gob: I heard the jury's still out on science.

  • 09-04-2007 7:55 AM In reply to

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    normaltim:

    The best that I can find:

    "The universal creative force which is the source of the laws and designs found throughout Nature."

    "   We view God as an eternal entity whose power is equal to his/her will. The following quote from Albert Einstein also offers a good Deistic description of God: "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.""

     

     A powerful creative force outside of the natural world that has created all that we see would, I guess, be a good definition of the common deist's conception of God.
     

    Excellent - is this force alive? Since it is "creative" and "reasoning" it would seem so - can you give us a more detailed definition?

    Can you also demonstrate the existence of this "outside universe"?

    Thanks!Big Smile


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  • 09-04-2007 8:03 AM In reply to

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    Since I'm not a deist anything I say will be all ad hoc and fairly easy to deflate but, I'm guessing most deists would say that the God they imagine is conscious although it may not have the same consciousness as ours (since it's not human I'm guessing that this isn't that crazy). I'm not sure if I can demonstrate "outside the universe". I'm too stuck in this one to be able to even imagine anything outside of it.

    Michael: (about Steve Holt) Your son? Gob: According to him. Michael: And a DNA test. Gob: I heard the jury's still out on science.

  • 09-04-2007 8:36 AM In reply to

    • JamesP
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-28-2007
    • Denver, Colorado
    • Posts 1,652
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    normaltim:
    James P.:

    Since when does atheism require proof?

    I'm not saying it does that's for each individual to decide.

      

    James P.:
    Atheism is the default position, or the lack of a positive claim.  Theists are the ones making positive claims about the existence of their god and/or gods (and the non-existence of other gods, or hierarchical claims regarding their god's position in the ethereal realm) and thus the burden of proof is on them to support their claims, not the other way around.

    Got proof? 


    This does nothing to prove Atheism to be true only that it is more rational. Atheism can't be proven to be true.

    I never claimed that atheism requires proof.  I specifically said that theistic claims require proof.

    normaltim:
    Just because someone doesn't have evidence that there exists something beyond nature it doesn't mean that you can safely conclude that there isn't anything outside or beyond nature and that atheism is proven correct.

    Why not?

    some of my own personal archaeology

  • 09-04-2007 8:42 AM In reply to

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    James P.:

    normaltim:
    Just because someone doesn't have evidence that there exists something beyond nature it doesn't mean that you can safely conclude that there isn't anything outside or beyond nature and that atheism is proven correct.

    Why not?

     I know this is a horribly cliched annoying, quote that has been used to death and the very mention of it makes my blood (and I'm sure the blood of just about everyone else) boil but, it is the quickest and easiest way of demonstrating the point I want to make:

     "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"


    or better yet:

    Absence of evidence is not proof of absence.

     

    Michael: (about Steve Holt) Your son? Gob: According to him. Michael: And a DNA test. Gob: I heard the jury's still out on science.

  • 09-04-2007 8:46 AM In reply to

    • Karl
    • Top 100 Contributor
    • Joined on 05-23-2007
    • NYC area
    • Posts 310
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Sorry for all of these boring videos...

    James P.:

    Since when does atheism require proof?  Atheism is the default position, or the lack of a positive claim.  Theists are the ones making positive claims about the existence of their god and/or gods (and the non-existence of other gods, or hierarchical claims regarding their god's position in the ethereal realm) and thus the burden of proof is on them to support their claims, not the other way around.

    Got proof? 


    Exactly. There are, essentially, an infinity of possible imaginary positive claims based on no evidence. A real possibility has to involve some sort of evidence and logical consistency.


    I briefly used a quote from Francis Bacon as my signature: "Nature to be commanded must be obeyed." (1620)  I agree with it conceptually, but I don't like the connotations of domination and submission in the language. Bacon also pointed out the obvious, that "knowledge is power." Living beings pursue power, instinctually and/or conceptually, to survive and/or pursue happiness (and spread their genetic material far and wide). Power is good for human beings, as long as it remains at the individual level within certain boundaries (of self-ownership). In order to maximize one's power to "live long and prosper," a human being must think and act according to the laws of physical reality ("obey" nature) as discovered through the evidence of the senses and logic (which is learned from the evidence of the senses as one grasps that reality does not contradict itself).


    I find it interesting that the concept of God has similarities to the concept of the cosmos as a whole (except that there is no evidence that the cosmos is conscious... it would take a hell of a long time for it to "think," anyway). The known universe is "omnipresent" as it is everywhere simultaneously, though the speed of light, presumably, limits the speed of communication from one part to another (unless physics can prove otherwise). The cosmos is "omnipotent," at least in the sense that one cannot defy the laws inherent in its structure. And it could be personified as "omniscient" as the truth is implicitly embedded in the relations of physical reality (and made explicit through conceptualization and language of conscious beings).


    Of course, many fine thinkers have shown the contradictions inherent in trying to combine these concepts in the nature of a singular being. However, because of the similarites to theology, I see possibilities for prying people away from mysticism. The first step might be taking "The Father" out of God (the fear factor). Or perhaps for some, that will be the last thing to go, and the first thing to do is point out the conceptual similiarities to "the cosmos" while pointing out the logical contradictions of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence at some point. I'll let you know if I have any success!

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